Half Race Appreciation Society: Half Elf most popular race choice in BG3

[Mistwell]

I realize that prehistoric hominid species existed. But reallife racists misused the concept to "other" ethnic groups and to dehumanize them, by pseudoscientifically referring to them as if separate "biological branches" of the human species. D&D is rife with this kind of racism. 2024 must eliminate every trace of it, including the overtly and highly racist D&D Elf traditions.

My man, just because racists erroneously misuse a concept doesn't make the concept racist. Similarly just because some religious people call D&D Satanism due to magic and witches doesn't make D&D Satanic. You can't just discard everything evil stupid racists misuse. That let's racists win, by accepting their use of those concepts as valid by giving it that power.

I mean I was fine with calling it something else, but now you've convinced me - we should use race and subrace. Because F those guys. We should not change our language because those guys misuse it. Nor should you be running around looking for a maoist purge of any such associations because actual racists misused them. You don't adapt to what they're doing if you want to beat them. You challenge it and own that language for your own good purposes.

It is insufficient to change the name if it still means "subrace". If it is somehow both the same species but not the same species, it comes across as racist.

Only to racists. Because as you said, that's a MISUSE of the concept.

Who, other than you, is saying it comes across as racist. I want to know if anyone else in the whole world is making this claim. Because as I mentioned earlier, I've never seen a single person on all of Twitter/X or Reddit or here make the claims you're making about this. Who has claimed Duergar Traits is racist? Show me. I just did a long search of Twitter / X for Duergar Traits and any comment even vaguely implying they thought it was racist and not one person said or implied that. And this is the internet, where someone has said pretty much everything at some point!

 

[Mistwell]

Apparently mechanical differences between PC species of any kind are racist now.

We've reached a very silly stage now.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

We've reached a very silly stage now.

Mod Note:

I’m inclined to agree. Is there anything in this thread still worth keeping alive for discussion- politely- or is it a zombie?

 

[Frozen_Heart]

Apparently my attempt to deflect the irl taxonomy failed.

I study biology I can't help it! ;-;

But even if they were around today, they would probably be considered a different species. There is significant evidence that they had a lot of trouble interbreeding with humans, which is why only a small percent of their DNA still survives in us today. I'm unsure of the specifics, but it may have been the case that the results of many pairings were infertile.

Considering some modern animals which are regarded as different species can still make viable offspring, then it seems pretty clear that neanderthals would be technically a separate species to modern humans.

But yeah, classification is very messy as nature doesn't like hard boundaries and definitions. Taxonomy and cladistics is more what you'd call 'guidelines' than actual rules.

 

[Yaarel]

I study biology I can't help it! ;-;

But even if they were around today, they would probably be considered a different species. There is significant evidence that they had a lot of trouble interbreeding with humans, which is why only a small percent of their DNA still survives in us today. I'm unsure of the specifics, but it may have been the case that the results of many pairings were infertile.

Considering some modern animals which are regarded as different species can still make viable offspring, then it seems pretty clear that neanderthals would be technically a separate species to modern humans.

But yeah, classification is very messy as nature doesn't like hard boundaries and definitions. Taxonomy and cladistics is more what you'd call 'guidelines' than actual rules.

When D&D updates to adopt the term "species", the term also needs the appropriate mechanics for it.

In taxonomy, a "species" is understood to mean, its members reproduce fertile offspring.

So, if Elves are members of the same species, they normally reproduce fertile offspring together. There needs to be mechanics to represent the traits of their offspring. Wood communities and Drow communities are both inhabitants of the High Forest region, and presumably reproduce children together on occasion. At the Fey Crossings, High and Eladrin reproduce children together. Larger cities often have Elves from many cultures. It is normal for couples from different Elf cultures to reproduce children together, because they are members of the same species. The mechanics of the "species" traits needs to represent all of the children of a same species.

That two separate species can sometimes reproduce fertile offspring is the point of this thread, where Human and Elf are able to reproduce offspring together despite being separate species.

It is normal for members of the Human species to reproduce fertile offspring together, and we do know what the mechanics are for these Human children. Likewise, it is normal for members of the Elf species to reproduce fertile offspring together, and we need to know what the mechanics are for these Elf children.

This is all part of now using the term "species". The mechanics are important.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

When D&D updates to adopt the term "species", the term also needs the appropriate mechanics for it.

In taxonomy, a "species" is understood to mean, its members reproduce fertile offspring.

So, if Elves are members of the same species, they normally reproduce fertile offspring together. There needs to be mechanics to represent the traits of their offspring. Wood communities and Drow communities are both inhabitants of the High Forest region, and presumably reproduce children together on occasion. At the Fey Crossings, High and Eladrin reproduce children together. Larger cities often have Elves from many cultures. It is normal for couples from different Elf cultures to reproduce children together, because they are members of the same species. The mechanics of the "species" traits needs to represent all of the children of a same species.

That two separate species can sometimes reproduce fertile offspring is the point of this thread, where Human and Elf are able to reproduce offspring together despite being separate species.

It is normal for members of the Human species to reproduce fertile offspring together, and we do know what the mechanics are for these Human children. Likewise, it is normal for members of the Elf species to reproduce fertile offspring together, and we need to know what the mechanics are for these Elf children.

This is all part of now using the term "species". The mechanics are important.

Trouble is, we have no official clarification on how closely related the different types of elves are to each other. Are they like human ethnicities, where there are no differences beyond minor cosmetics and different cultures? Or are they completely different subspecies or even species, which are biologically separate with differing abilities?

 

[Yaarel]

Trouble is, we have no official clarification on how closely related the different types of elves are to each other. Are they like human ethnicities, where there are no differences beyond minor cosmetics and different cultures? Or are they completely different subspecies or even species, which are biologically separate with differing abilities?

If the Elves are actually separate species, then they use the multispecies rules to create a character.

If the Elves are the same species, then they use the rules for the Elf species to create a character.

 

[Cadence]

Trouble is, we have no official clarification on how closely related the different types of elves are to each other. Are they like human ethnicities, where there are no differences beyond minor cosmetics and different cultures? Or are they completely different subspecies or even species, which are biologically separate with differing abilities?

One of them can breath water, so that one at least feels more than cosmetic?

 

[Remathilis]

Trouble is, we have no official clarification on how closely related the different types of elves are to each other. Are they like human ethnicities, where there are no differences beyond minor cosmetics and different cultures? Or are they completely different subspecies or even species, which are biologically separate with differing abilities?

5e at this point has seven official types of elves and one guest type (plus countless variations on each). Three of them have minor differences and the ability to cast different magic. Three of them are planar, can teleport innately, and have minor abilities when they do, and one can swim and talk to fish. That's just grand overview stuff.

 

[Scribe]

Are they like human ethnicities, where there are no differences beyond minor cosmetics and different cultures?

Considering some see better in the dark, some move faster, some BREATH WATER, some can teleport, some HAVE WINGS?

No, this is not cultural or minor cosmetics (hair/eyes/skin colour) these are biologically distinct attributes, about as far away from culture as the automatic beating of our hearts.

 

[CreamCloud0]

5e at this point has seven official types of elves and one guest type

Would i be correct as identifying those as Wood, High, Dark, Sea, Eladrin, Avariel(winged), Pallid and Astral elves?

If we were trying to prune some of the excess elf subtypes which ones would people choose to keep and those to remove, and what features if any would you try to intergrate into the remaining subspecies from those discarded?

-Sea elves and winged i think could be removed, the seem to provide little unique traits that other aquatic or flying species don't also provide besides the generic elf traits they share,
-The pallid elf would go but i might intergrate their magic into the dark elf as an alternate choice of innate spells,
-Finally the eladrin, i might give their seasons to the wood elf as a ribbon feature and their selection of fey step options to the high elf potentially replacing some/all of their weapon proficiencies.

This would leave us with wood, high dark and astral elves as our remaining selection, half the number of elf subclasses than we started with.

 

[Remathilis]

Would i be correct as identifying those as Wood, High, Dark, Sea, Eladrin, Avariel(winged), Pallid and Astral elves?.

Avariel didn't make it outside of UA. You missed Shadar-kai.

 

[Yaarel]

Considering Mordenkainen Presents (Eladrin, Shadar-kai, Sea), Spelljammer (Astral), Explorers Guide to Wildemont (Pallid), Forgotten Realms setting (Avariel Winged Elf lacks official stats in 5e but is a notable feature of the official setting), and the first playtest CharacterOrigins (Drow, High, Wood) − their traits suggest four species at first glance:

• Drow, High, Wood, Pallid
• Eladrin, Shadar-kai, Astral
• Sea
• Winged

However, it is unclear if the playtest "lineage" format intends to override the earlier Mordenkainen Presents. If so, the Misty Step spell that Eladrin/Shadar-kai/Astral gains at level 1 might instead be gained at level 5 as part of a "lineage". In the same way, the High lineage gains Misty Step at level 5. Then the traits suggest three species.

• Drow, High, Wood, Pallid, Eladrin, Shadar-Kai, Astral
• Sea
• Winged

Sea and Winged seem the odd ones out of the Elf species.

 

[Scribe]

Sea and Winged seem the odd ones out of the Elf species.

Only if one is squinting and trying to force their view on the developers.

High/Drow/Wood - Material, An attribute that is biological/innate, and specific spells learned innately.
Astral/Eladrin/Shadar-Kai - Planar, "Misty Step" innately, as part of their biology.
Sea/Winged/X - "Elemental", with distinct biological adaptations to their environments.

Makes perfect sense to have the various paths of the Elf, diverge along these 3 major branches, into various forks of development.

Conclusion: We need an Earth and Fire Elf with distinct biological attributes.

 

[Cadence]

Conclusion: We need an Earth and Fire Elf with distinct biological attributes.

Are those dwarves (digging away) and gnomes (some hater tried to take care of them with it and they resisted)?

 

[Scribe]

Are those dwarves (digging away) and gnomes (some hater tried to take care of them with it and they resisted)?

Now we get into dangerous territory!

 

[Vaalingrade]

When did Shadar-kai become elves?

Am I on crazy pills or didn't they used to be Shadow-humans?

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

When did Shadar-kai become elves?

Am I on crazy pills or didn't they used to be Shadow-humans?

You are not wrong. There was a lore change in 5E to make them elves of the shadowfell opposite eladrin who are elves of the feywild.

 

[Yaarel]

When did Shadar-kai become elves?

Am I on crazy pills or didn't they used to be Shadow-humans?

In 3e, the Shadar-kai are "fey". 5e translates this as being an Elf.

In 4e, certain Human victims of the Spell Plague became Shadar-kai.

 

[Vaalingrade]

We did not need MORE elves.