Robbert Raets
Explorer
But still, with a high level adjustment you probably won't qualify for most Epic Feats, in that they require high saves or BAB's...
Half Treant, the Treeman
Eldorian
First Post
11? You're mad. A full blown treant is ECL 12, and is huge, has 10 higher str, 6 higher con, higer int, cha, damage, reach, nat armor, animates trees, more trample damage.. ect ect.
A minotaur is ecl 8, has 6 hd, +6 bab, 2 good save tracks, scent, bonus charge damage.. my treeman has only 4 HD.
That whole starting ecl = HD plus ECL is bogus, depending on the type of HD. Plant HD are the equivalent of humaoid basically, which is worse than any pc class, whereas Outsider and dragon HD are compareable to PC levels, and the Mounsterous Humanoid and Magical beast HD are almost worth pc levels, cause they have 2 good save tracks and fighter BAB. The ECL on my treeman was done by comparing a minotaur to a treant, as they are written in savage species. Unless they have both horribly wrong, there is NO WAY my treeman is ecl 11.
As for the trusting of 3rd party stuff over homebrew... You think they playtest that? sure they may run it threw a game or two, but that's hardly playtesting. I have yet to see a 3rd party book I'll allow, without changes, into my game. And because I made it up does make it better than something else. I went through the time and effort of writing it up, so it has more value to me than something in some one else's book. A book, I might add, I do not own, nor does my DM, and do not plan on owning. Now, 3rd party material has the potential to be good stuff, but, from what i've seen, the rules bits in them are done sort of sloppy. There are good 3rd party adventures out there tho.
A minotaur is ecl 8, has 6 hd, +6 bab, 2 good save tracks, scent, bonus charge damage.. my treeman has only 4 HD.
That whole starting ecl = HD plus ECL is bogus, depending on the type of HD. Plant HD are the equivalent of humaoid basically, which is worse than any pc class, whereas Outsider and dragon HD are compareable to PC levels, and the Mounsterous Humanoid and Magical beast HD are almost worth pc levels, cause they have 2 good save tracks and fighter BAB. The ECL on my treeman was done by comparing a minotaur to a treant, as they are written in savage species. Unless they have both horribly wrong, there is NO WAY my treeman is ecl 11.
As for the trusting of 3rd party stuff over homebrew... You think they playtest that? sure they may run it threw a game or two, but that's hardly playtesting. I have yet to see a 3rd party book I'll allow, without changes, into my game. And because I made it up does make it better than something else. I went through the time and effort of writing it up, so it has more value to me than something in some one else's book. A book, I might add, I do not own, nor does my DM, and do not plan on owning. Now, 3rd party material has the potential to be good stuff, but, from what i've seen, the rules bits in them are done sort of sloppy. There are good 3rd party adventures out there tho.
Eldorian said:
If you really want to get picky your Treeman is higher.
4HD = 4 ECL
Natural Armor: +2 (+1 per 5 points)
Reach: +1 (+1 per 5')
Unbalanced Ability Scores: +1 (+14 gain!!)
High Attack Rate: +1
Trample is actually +2
Special Damage vs. Objects: +1
Plant Type: +1
By the book, thats actually an ECL 13! Being Kind I acid tested this and dropped it by -2 ECL, dropping Damage vs. Objects and and dropping Trample to a +1.
Important One:
Savage Species p. 11: "If a monster gains multiple attacks in a single round before a fighter of the equal Hit Dice would do the same, or if a monster's natural weapons do more damage than a simple or martial weapon it could wield in one hand, the monster gets a +1 LA."
Your Race Has 2 attacks at 4th level - A Fighter doesnt get 2 attacks until 6th level.
Minotaur: Starting ECL = 8
6HD
Reach: +1
Natural Armor +1
Unbalanced Ability Score: +1
By the book, None of the other abilities warent an LA. Scent and Natural Cunning do not gain an LA. Acid Tested by -1 ECL.
I Acid tested yours by -2 ECL.
1st off - If you didnt want criticism - you shouldnt have posted to the boards. All I am doing is showing the possible abuse of the race compared to what is set down in the rules. If you REALLY cared about balance and not a mega-power uber race, you would look at the criticism objectively and think about it and ask for ways to fix it.
2nd off - Where do you get the "starting ecl = HD plus ECL is bogus"? Are you saying that ALL the rules can go out the window because you dont like them for your race, but they apply to everything else?
Savage Species p. 6:
"Starting ECL: A Monster's strating ECL is defined as: Base Creature's Hit Dice + Level Adjustment."
This rule applies to every monster race in the book but yours? It only applies to every OTHER PLANT monster in the book but your race?
If you dont want to count 4HD into the ECL, make it a 1HD creature - PERIOD! Then it doesnt count, and its then ECL 7.
How about dropping the Slam to 1 Slam attack - HEY there goes another +1.
How about dropping it to +5 Natural Armor - HEY there goes another +1.
Now we have an ECL 5 Race.
3rd: "Plant HD are the equivalent of humaoid basically, which is worse than any pc class, whereas Outsider and dragon HD are compareable to PC levels, and the Mounsterous Humanoid and Magical beast HD are almost worth pc levels."
What book are YOU reading? ALL Monsters have a D8 HD. And as far as skills and saves and BAB go - its the cost of being a Plant. Same thing with any other CLASS CHOICE. Some are good at some things, other suck at them.
If you looked at it your way, is a Fighter better than a Rogue because it gets a better BAB and HD? Or is the Rogue better because it gets more skills? Or does the monk walk all over them both because it gets good saves in everything? Come on - that is NOT how you dictate balance.
4th: The ECL on my treeman was done by comparing a minotaur to a treant, as they are written in savage species."
Thats like comparing an Apple to a Turnip! Would you compare a Sprite to an Elemental? How about a Centaur to a Dopelganger?
See the Minotaur above. IT follows the rules if you include the -1 Acid Test adjustment. Guess what - with a -2 Acid Test adjustment on your race - its STILL ECL 11 IF you folow the same rules as the Minotuar.
Compared to the race you created at ECL 7? I would hate to see what you WOULD allow in your game. Its not balanced. It is too powerful for an ECL 7. The ABSOLUTE lowest I would allow this is ECL 10, and as a DM that makes me nervous about Balance.
No - its is NOT better. Its different. You are so attached and think your self so superior, that you refuse to looking at it objectively.
And as for 3rd party - just because they are 3rd party does not mean they are intrinsecly worse than 1st party. I have seen some real crap come from 1st Party Source (can I mention Splat Books?). Much 3rd party stuff is BETTER than core. Hence ... 3.5E.
You basically want a Treant, that the DM already told you NO to, so you created this Uber "yet reduced" version of the treant, and cant understand why what you created is still too powerful for an ECL 7.
If your DM allows this as-is. More power to ya. I would never allow it as it is.
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Eldorian
First Post
Well, I'd reply to all that, but it's not worth my time
Btw, if you think all monsters get d8s and that all monster HD are equal, you play a different game than me. (or you never read the MM)
And a treeman compared to a treant is like a little apple compared to a big one... did you actually read it? and a minotaur has the exact same str and Con, the 2 imporant stats for the race. If i wanted to use Savage species very flawed ECL calculator, I would have used it and not posted it. I mean, the fighter attacks thing? thats absurd. At ECL 11, as you suggest, a fighter would get 3 attacks, looks like my treeman needs a mitigating factor, he's only got 2.
Eldorian Antar
Btw, if you think all monsters get d8s and that all monster HD are equal, you play a different game than me. (or you never read the MM)
And a treeman compared to a treant is like a little apple compared to a big one... did you actually read it? and a minotaur has the exact same str and Con, the 2 imporant stats for the race. If i wanted to use Savage species very flawed ECL calculator, I would have used it and not posted it. I mean, the fighter attacks thing? thats absurd. At ECL 11, as you suggest, a fighter would get 3 attacks, looks like my treeman needs a mitigating factor, he's only got 2.
Eldorian Antar
What I meant to say, but worded poorly is that all the monsters you were comparing with (Except the Dragon and Megical Beasts) are D8 HD. Treant, Mionotaur, Outsiders (Plane Touched, Demons, Deveils, Celestial, Elementals), and Monstrous Humanoids.
No humanoid creature should be compared to a Magical Beast or Dragon anyway, so all applicable comparisons are D8 HD.
You also cant compare races just based on STR & CON adjustments.
As for the Fighter attacks... It is a 4HD Creature with 2 Attacks! As a Monster it gets compared to a 4th Level Character!
The other reason this is SO IMPORTANT?
Savage Species p. 11: If a monster gains multiple attacks in a single round before a Fighter of EQUAL HD would do the same or if the monster's natural weapons deal more damage than a simple or martial weapon it could wield in one hand, the monster gains a +1 level adjustment.
AND...
Savage Species p. 27: Members of the corresponding monster class are always proficient with their own natural weapons. Using a natural attack does NOT PROVOKE AN ATTACK OF OPPORTUNTY unless the class description specifies otherwise. A monster does not gain iterative attacks on a full attack action with its natural weapons unless the class description specifies otherwise. A monster character can use any of its natural weapons as a secondary attack at a -5 penalty on the attack, even if it doesnt choose to use its actually primary attack in a given round. The Multiattack penalty feat described in the Monster Manual can reduce the penalty on secondary attacks to -2.
Example: Minotaur attacks with weapon and Gore.
Lets see, so we have a 4HD being with free Weapon Proficiency feat, free Improved Unarmed Combat feat, that can wield a Weapon in each hand AND get 2 Extra Attacks per round ... for 4 attacks a round at 4th level!!!!!!
Now compare THAT to the 11th Level Fighter with 3 Attacks!
No humanoid creature should be compared to a Magical Beast or Dragon anyway, so all applicable comparisons are D8 HD.
You also cant compare races just based on STR & CON adjustments.
As for the Fighter attacks... It is a 4HD Creature with 2 Attacks! As a Monster it gets compared to a 4th Level Character!
The other reason this is SO IMPORTANT?
Savage Species p. 11: If a monster gains multiple attacks in a single round before a Fighter of EQUAL HD would do the same or if the monster's natural weapons deal more damage than a simple or martial weapon it could wield in one hand, the monster gains a +1 level adjustment.
AND...
Savage Species p. 27: Members of the corresponding monster class are always proficient with their own natural weapons. Using a natural attack does NOT PROVOKE AN ATTACK OF OPPORTUNTY unless the class description specifies otherwise. A monster does not gain iterative attacks on a full attack action with its natural weapons unless the class description specifies otherwise. A monster character can use any of its natural weapons as a secondary attack at a -5 penalty on the attack, even if it doesnt choose to use its actually primary attack in a given round. The Multiattack penalty feat described in the Monster Manual can reduce the penalty on secondary attacks to -2.
Example: Minotaur attacks with weapon and Gore.
Lets see, so we have a 4HD being with free Weapon Proficiency feat, free Improved Unarmed Combat feat, that can wield a Weapon in each hand AND get 2 Extra Attacks per round ... for 4 attacks a round at 4th level!!!!!!
Now compare THAT to the 11th Level Fighter with 3 Attacks!
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Eldorian
First Post
Quote savage species all you want, i neighter own the book nor plan on it. I've looked through it enough to decide that I can do better. The templates might be nice, but the spells and feats in there are for the most part overpowered, and almost all the ECLs are off. As for you quad hitting minotaur.. um.. what weapons is he fighting with? A treeman uses its fists to slam, how exactly does it wield two weapons and punch in the same round? Next you'll tell me that half fiends can claw and stab with swords at the same time...
As for the HD being equal cause they're simply all d8s.. um... monsterous humaoids get fighter bab, whereas plants, giants, and humanoids all get cleric. Monsterous humanoid get 2 good save tracks, the other HD only get one. How can these be equal? Is a cleric with fighter bab equal to a cleric with his old BAB? Sigh...
Eldorian Antar
As for the HD being equal cause they're simply all d8s.. um... monsterous humaoids get fighter bab, whereas plants, giants, and humanoids all get cleric. Monsterous humanoid get 2 good save tracks, the other HD only get one. How can these be equal? Is a cleric with fighter bab equal to a cleric with his old BAB? Sigh...
Eldorian Antar
Enough. I have a headache.
Eldorian - You're as humble as you are unappreciative.
Khaalis took some time (more than was deserved) to provide sound, impartial feedback.
And how do you respond? With disparaging remarks interspersed with declarations on how clever you are.
Since you seem so good at creating your own systems and rules, why not make a size category larger than Colossal? Seems that your ego needs it.
Have fun with your Treeman, bud.
RJ
Eldorian - You're as humble as you are unappreciative.
Khaalis took some time (more than was deserved) to provide sound, impartial feedback.
And how do you respond? With disparaging remarks interspersed with declarations on how clever you are.
Since you seem so good at creating your own systems and rules, why not make a size category larger than Colossal? Seems that your ego needs it.
Have fun with your Treeman, bud.
RJ
Eldorian
First Post
Hey, I posted a race for review, he suggested I not use it, then proceeded to say that it was 1 ecl short of the race it was based on, even though I took all the abilities and halved them. It's not my fault that Savage species, the book he used to poorly estimate the ECL on the race, is inherently flawed. And previously, when i said my race was better, i mean that my race has more significance to me, ie, the choice to use it, to me, was better than some other race, simply because I made it. He never raised an objection other than using the format from savage species to estimate its ecl, which is flawed. Else, why would they need such an "acid test", that always gives a different answer?
I never once insulted him, I insulted the books he referenced, namely cause savage species has a poor ECL calculator, and I don't plan to ever buy that 3rd party races book.
No, I wanted a Treant, realised that it wouldn't fit into the game as a huge creature, so I reduced it. My DM trusts me to make a balanced character. In fact, I have often nerfed myself if I came up with too good an idea. If a treant is ecl 12, and a minotaur is ECL 8, then my guy must be between ecl 6 and ecl 8, because he's between those two in power. The highest I'd let it go is 9, without playtesting, but I think at ECL 9 it might prove weaker than normal races.
As for a size catagory larger than colossal.. well, it's called colossal+ and I might just fight one with my treeman, cause it will be an epic game...
Eldorian Antar
I never once insulted him, I insulted the books he referenced, namely cause savage species has a poor ECL calculator, and I don't plan to ever buy that 3rd party races book.
No, I wanted a Treant, realised that it wouldn't fit into the game as a huge creature, so I reduced it. My DM trusts me to make a balanced character. In fact, I have often nerfed myself if I came up with too good an idea. If a treant is ecl 12, and a minotaur is ECL 8, then my guy must be between ecl 6 and ecl 8, because he's between those two in power. The highest I'd let it go is 9, without playtesting, but I think at ECL 9 it might prove weaker than normal races.
As for a size catagory larger than colossal.. well, it's called colossal+ and I might just fight one with my treeman, cause it will be an epic game...
Eldorian Antar
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