D&D 5E (2014) Halfling rogue sniping from the the second rank

[Sir Brennen]

Now here's the interesting part. Because the creature you're hiding behind only grants you half cover, you can still see it, even after you've hidden. So you don't have to "pop-out" of cover to attack (popping out would only apply to total cover, as you can see the target with any less cover). Of course the target would also have half cover. So when you hide behind the fighter, you're in an awesome position where you can see the target, but it can't see you. It's exactly the same as if you were invisible and repeatedly attacked from the same position. (Hiding and being invisible are two different ways to gain advantage from being unseen. If your target can't see you, you get advantage, even if it knows where you are)

See, actually using the word "cover" in the ability description would steer readers to this logic alot quicker. I see what you're saying that the Lightfoot have a special ability to hide when they only have half cover granted by a larger creature, where normally you'd have to have total cover (be unseen.)

Again, it's trivially easy to defeat this tactic. Simply moving around the fighter to a position adjacent to the halfling prevents him from hiding again until he moves, provoking an opportunity attack.

I'm not necessarily worried about how to defeat the tactic. I'm not decrying the ability as overpowered or broken. I'm just trying to get it to make sense in my head. As others pointed out, if the fighter buddy is actually in melee with the target, you have advantage anyway, hidden or not.

Ah, but you can't make a stealth roll to back away from the tree. In order to move unobserved you must first take the hide action. The stealth roll is tied to the hide action, and NOT the movement.

The Hide action isn't tied to the movement, but a Stealth roll can be. It's the "and unheard" part (fka "Move Silently") of being hidden. Plenty of examples in the rules, such as using Stealth in exploration, or the Supreme Sneak ability of a rogue. Assuming you successfully used the Hide action behind the tree first, as long as you keep the tree between yourself and the orc as total cover, you continue to fulfill the "unseen" qualifier. But if you move, you risk breaking the "and unheard" part. So I'd call for a Stealth roll to *remain* hidden.

 

[fjw70]

Players don't take up an entire 5-foot square. It is more than possible to hide behind a wall, peek around the corner to shoot, and then duck back around the corner.

RAW, there is nothing in the rules that says attacking from hiding only applies to the first attack made in combat.

Once again you are missing a key part of this. Once you "peek" from total cover then you can be seen. Again if you can see them then they can see you.

Once you are seen you are no longer hiding and don't get the benefit of hiding.

 

[fjw70]

See, actually using the word "cover" in the ability description would steer readers to this logic alot quicker. I see what you're saying that the Lightfoot have a special ability to hide when they only have half cover granted by a larger creature, where normally you'd have to have total cover (be unseen.)

The halfling ability isn't about cover. It's about obscurement. The halfling will still have his half cover but that is separate from his naturally stealthy power.

 

[Sir Brennen]

The halfling ability isn't about cover. It's about obscurement. The halfling will still have his half cover but that is separate from his naturally stealthy power.

As I mentioned up thread, the use of the word obscurement is problematic, because it's an actual game term, though I think it was meant colloquially in the ability description. Is it light or heavy obscurement? If it's light, does that mean the enemy has disadvantage on it's Perception check to notice you (making the ability more powerful). If it's heavy, then the halfing is actually attacking with disadvantage (cancelled out by advantage for hiding), because he's functionally blind with relation to the target. Or is it simply a "special" obscurement, that doesn't have any mechanical effects other than letting the halfing hide?

Treating it as cover works in both plain English usage and as a game term. It definitely becomes a more defensive option, because you get the AC and Dex bonus, plus attacks directed at you would have disadvantage if you're hidden.

 

[Bryk]

See, actually using the word "cover" in the ability description would steer readers to this logic alot quicker. I see what you're saying that the Lightfoot have a special ability to hide when they only have half cover granted by a larger creature, where normally you'd have to have total cover (be unseen.)

I'm not necessarily worried about how to defeat the tactic. I'm not decrying the ability as overpowered or broken. I'm just trying to get it to make sense in my head. As others pointed out, if the fighter buddy is actually in melee with the target, you have advantage anyway, hidden or not.

The Hide action isn't tied to the movement, but a Stealth roll can be. It's the "and unheard" part (fka "Move Silently") of being hidden. Plenty of examples in the rules, such as using Stealth in exploration, or the Supreme Sneak ability of a rogue. Assuming you successfully used the Hide action behind the tree first, as long as you keep the tree between yourself and the orc as total cover, you continue to fulfill the "unseen" qualifier. But if you move, you risk breaking the "and unheard" part. So I'd call for a Stealth roll to *remain* hidden.

"
I'm not necessarily worried about how to defeat the tactic. I'm not decrying the ability as overpowered or broken. I'm just trying to get it to make sense in my head. As others pointed out, if the fighter buddy is actually in melee with the target, you have advantage anyway, hidden or not.

"

As a rogue you do not have advantage if your buddy is right next to you. You do gain sneak attack if your target has a hostile creature within 5 feet of it.

Sneak attack Damage : You gain it if you have advantage, OR if your target has a hostile creature within 5 feet of it.

You gain advantage, if you meet any of the normal conditions for gaining advantage.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Once again you are missing a key part of this. Once you "peek" from total cover then you can be seen. Again if you can see them then they can see you.

Once you are seen you are no longer hiding and don't get the benefit of hiding.

Sure, you can be seen once you peek out, but that's what the Stealth Check is for... to see if you are spotted right away (or heard on your way out). If you make the check, they don't see or hear you. If you mean the second time you do it, sure, it ought to be harder. Impossible to do from the same position? I don't think so. Harder, though, I'll grant.

I'm not necessarily worried about how to defeat the tactic. I'm not decrying the ability as overpowered or broken. I'm just trying to get it to make sense in my head. As others pointed out, if the fighter buddy is actually in melee with the target, you have advantage anyway, hidden or not.

I'm sure you mean "the ability to use sneak attack" here. You don't get advantage.

 

[Sir Brennen]

As a rogue you do not have advantage if your buddy is right next to you. You do gain sneak attack if your target has a hostile creature within 5 feet of it.

NM....

 

[fjw70]

As I mentioned up thread, the use of the word obscurement is problematic, because it's an actual game term, though I think it was meant colloquially in the ability description. Is it light or heavy obscurement? If it's light, does that mean the enemy has disadvantage on it's Perception check to notice you (making the ability more powerful). If it's heavy, then the halfing is actually attacking with disadvantage (cancelled out by advantage for hiding), because he's functionally blind with relation to the target. Or is it simply a "special" obscurement, that doesn't have any mechanical effects other than letting the halfing hide?

Treating it as cover works in both plain English usage and as a game term. It definitely becomes a more defensive option, because you get the AC and Dex bonus, plus attacks directed at you would have disadvantage if you're hidden.

It is special obscurement with no other mechanical benefits other then allowing the halfling to hide. I know this because this is what the power says. RAW you can't read anything else into the power. No lightly or heavily obscured and no total cover.

The halfling still has the half cover anyone would get in that space and gets the benefits of that but that is no connected to his hiding ability.

 

[Sir Brennen]

Sure, you can be seen once you peek out, but that's what the Stealth Check is for... to see if you are spotted right away (or heard on your way out). If you make the check, they don't see or hear you. If you mean the second time you do it, sure, it ought to be harder. Impossible to do from the same position? I don't think so. Harder, though, I'll grant.



I'm sure you mean "the ability to use sneak attack" here. You don't get advantage.

Yes, that's what I meant

 

[fjw70]

Sure, you can be seen once you peek out, but that's what the Stealth Check is for... to see if you are spotted right away (or heard on your way out). If you make the check, they don't see or hear you. If you mean the second time you do it, sure, it ought to be harder. Impossible to do from the same position? I don't think so. Harder, though, I'll grant.

The DM can certainly allow a check if they think there's a chance you could go unnoticed, but nothing in the rules mandates that you can make the check. That's a DM call.