Handling Illusions and Spellcraft

[TheGogmagog]

I loved illusions in 2e, but fail to see them as very usefull in 3 and 3.5. Because of all the chances to ignore. I think my 2e DM's were a bit generous and my 3.5 dm's have been less imaginative or at least less willing to bend the rules for a good story. I do like the ideas of opposed spellcraft checks to not make it a given. At the very least the distance penalties for listen and spot are often forgotten. Listen checks get hard at -1 per 10' and more for doors and walls. It's easy to forget those modifiers in the midst of a game.

When I DM, I also have casters make the spellcraft check on thier own turn. Ie. Illusionist cast a spell, the party cleric asks what's he casting, I say you study his movements and a wall of stone appears. On the clerics turn I let him make one spellcraft check as a free action in the event there were multiple castings that turn. They usually decline to make the check even as a free action. After all, the spell was obviously wall of stone.

 

[KarinsDad]

And think about it this way: if we go with your rulling then we have just made it effectievly impossible to save against illusions! The wizard cast the illusion of the floor to obscure the holes there, the fighter makes his save and knows the floor is an illusion and can see its transparent outline but he can't see the holes beneath the illusion? What did he gain for his sucessful save? Might as well not have a saving throw at all.

No, you still save against them.

The Fighter is aware that the floor is illusionary and with careful interaction (which he needed anyway to observe the illusion in the first place), he now knows that the floor could be a trap.

He just is not specifically aware of where the holes are without possibly a spot roll or prodding the floor.

The only thing he did not get is a free "see through an illusion" which is nonsensical actually. It should take True Seeing magic to see through an illusion.

What good are illusions that can be seen through (except in Hyp's Fog trick)???

Might as well not have made the illusion at all.

 

[ThirdWizard]

What good are illusions that can be seen through (except in Hyp's Fog trick)???

Somewhere around the effectiveness of any other all or nothing spells depending on a failed save?

 

[Hypersmurf]

What good are illusions that can be seen through (except in Hyp's Fog trick)???

Might as well not have made the illusion at all.

They can't be seen through.

... when they work.

That's like saying "What good is a Charm Person that doesn't charm someone? Might as well not have cast the enchantment at all."

It does charm you... but only if you don't make you save.

Illusions can't be seen through... but only if you don't make your save.

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

They can't be seen through.

... when they work.

That's like saying "What good is a Charm Person that doesn't charm someone? Might as well not have cast the enchantment at all."

It does charm you... but only if you don't make you save.

Illusions can't be seen through... but only if you don't make your save.

"A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. (It is not a personalized mental impression.)"

It is NOT a mental impression, it is a visual image. Everyone should see the SAME visual image.

The visual image should be light. Nothing more, nothing less.

You should not be able to will it away anymore than you can will away a Darkness spell or a Daylight spell.

Having it be willed away DOES make it a mental impression. One that you can change by making your save (you now see a translucent outline instead of the figment).

You should be able to detect flaws in it though that others are not observant enough to detect, but you should not be able to see through it.


I do not know of another gaming system that allows you to see through illusions (although they might exist if they emulate DND) unless the illusions are mental illusions.

Purely visual illusions should be precisely that, visual.


How about an audible figment like Ghost Sound? Do you "hear" or "see" the outline of an audible figment??

How can you possibly define an outline of an audible figment???

According to RAW, that is precisely what happens for Ghost Sound: "A successful saving throw against an illusion reveals it to be false, but a figment or phantasm remains as a translucent outline."

If you save versus Ghost Sound, do you see translucent outlines "of sound" streaming from the source in all directions??? What does that look like?


And why are Glamers not that way if Figments are??? The only real difference between a Glamer and a Figment is that Figments show something that is not there and Glamers hide something that is there. Why is the magic SO different? You can see through the Figment, but cannot see what is under the Glamer. Nonsensical.


The entire concept was not well thought out. It's a wart on an otherwise fine game and seriously hampers Illusion magic with regard to Figments.

PS. You should also be able to notice flaws in a Figment WITHOUT interacting with it. The save might be higher, but it should be possible. In fact, it should be a Spot check (or Listen check for an audible Figment) instead of a Will Save. Like I said, Figments were not well thought out at all.

 

[Nellisir]

They can't be seen through.
... when they work.
That's like saying "What good is a Charm Person that doesn't charm someone? Might as well not have cast the enchantment at all."
It does charm you... but only if you don't make you save.
Illusions can't be seen through... but only if you don't make your save.
-Hyp.

The difference, I suppose, is that if you're charmed, you don't get a new save, or a bonus to your initial save, if your buddy yells out "You're charmed!".

But charm person doesn't effect multiple targets either.

Cheers
Nell.

 

[Hypersmurf]

It is NOT a mental impression, it is a visual image. Everyone should see the SAME visual image.

Regardless of 'should', if you make your disbelief save, the figment remains 'as a translucent outline'; whether you consider this to be a translucent-surfaced object, or merely an outline, makes no difference to the fact that you are no longer seeing 'the SAME visual image' as someone who fails their save.

I'm taking no position on what the rules 'should' say. But basing your position on 'Everyone should see the same', when the rules are clear that everyone doesn't, is a poor foundation to an argument.

-Hyp.

 

[TheGogmagog]

"A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. (It is not a personalized mental impression.)"

.... bla bla bla yadda yadda yadda....

The entire concept was not well thought out. It's a wart on an otherwise fine game and seriously hampers Illusion magic with regard to Figments.

PS. You should also be able to notice flaws in a Figment WITHOUT interacting with it. The save might be higher, but it should be possible. In fact, it should be a Spot check (or Listen check for an audible Figment) instead of a Will Save. Like I said, Figments were not well thought out at all.

I might agree with KarinsDad. You may detect that you are dealing with an illusion but should still see the same visual projection. The psionic version of invisibility deals with individual perception (unless it's changed) but spells that project an image should project the same image to everyone. There could be some major repercussions to this ruling though, making the new sukier versions of darkness pointless for one, but i wouldnt be opposed to bringing back the 'total darkness' either. I'll have to ponder the possibilities though.

I don't like the spot check method of detecting, because the skills don't scale with saves well. You could also introduced opposed checks which could get complicated depending on situations you might use bluff, craft (art?), perform, or some other skill the character happens to have ranks in like spellcraft. It could work, but seems more likely to leave an exploit hole.

 

[Hypersmurf]

You may detect that you are dealing with an illusion but should still see the same visual projection.

Is this discussion about what the rules say or what we think they should say?

-Hyp.

 

[KarinsDad]

Regardless of 'should', if you make your disbelief save, the figment remains 'as a translucent outline'; whether you consider this to be a translucent-surfaced object, or merely an outline, makes no difference to the fact that you are no longer seeing 'the SAME visual image' as someone who fails their save.

You ignored the Ghost Sound (or Ventriloquism) example.

What is the translucent outline of an audible component?


And how do you interact with an audible only component spell like Ghost Sound or Ventriloquism? By listening to it? If that is interacting, then why is not the Hobgoblins just looking at your Illusionary Fogbank not interacting with it???


Or, how about Illusory Wall?

"Touch or a probing search reveals the true nature of the surface, though such measures do not cause the illusion to disappear."

What does this mean? Does the wall become translucent or not to someone who makes the save? Can he see through a 6th level Permanent Image saved against, but not through a 4th level Illusory Wall saved against?


How about Mirror Image? Throw a large net over the caster and his images and it should automatically pass through the images and let you know which is which, right? How about using a Web spell against the caster? Shouldn't the web pass straight through the Mirror Images and instantly reveal them???

I'm taking no position on what the rules 'should' say. But basing your position on 'Everyone should see the same', when the rules are clear that everyone doesn't, is a poor foundation to an argument.

Are you claiming that discussing BAD rules on a rules forum is not valid???


Visual Figments (with the exception of Mirror Image which does not allow a save) are basically worthless at close range in 3.5.

PC: "I slightly push against the wall with my sword."
DM: "Ok, your sword goes through the wall, you automatically save versus the Figment, and you now see a translucent outline of the Figment."
PC: "Cool. What is beyond the illusionary wall?"

Any Search check where you touch the object you are searching AUTOMATICALLY results in getting past any Figment illusion with a save in 3.5 (which is all of them except Mirror Image I think).

Figments do not have touch components. Hence, you can push right through them if they have a visual component and automatically save every single time. In fact, you cannot feel them because they do not have touch (or texture) components.


Figment Illusions are totally worthless in 3.5 except at range where you cannot interact with them. Or can you? Remember those audible only Figments like Ghost Sound.


You can even overcome Mislead, a 6th level spell, by merely touching the Figment and having it poof into a translucent outline for you and everyone who sees your arm go through it. Ditto for 6th level spells like Programmed Illusion and Permanent Illusion. They can easily be overcome merely by touching them.


And how does regular light work with regard to a figment? You have a figment of a wall between two rooms, one room lit (A) and the other totally dark (B). One character in room B knows that it is a figment, so he sees the light streaming into room B from room A and can see into room A. Not only that, but he can also see everything in room B because it is not dark to him, it is lit up from room A.

The second character does not know the wall is a figment, so he sees nothing in totally dark room B.


Bad rules are bad rules Hyp.