Has 3.5E "failed"?

[Vocenoctum]

I wouldn't say that 3.5 has failed. I think we still have to wait to see if 3.5 was a success. It might go down as one of the most brilliant one two punches in the history of the game. Or it might not.

There was one thing noticed about 3.5 that was mostly unnoticed by many who complained or complemented it. If you look at 3.0 you can clearly see that the book was designed for the role playing community. It's not all that obvious for someone who knows nothing of role playing to pick up the 3.0 book and create a character. The revision seems more newbie friendly for the player and the DM.

Forget the Newbie, when I started 3e, I had 15+ years experience, and it still seemed pretty badly laid out for teaching the rules. I mean, the d20 mechanic isn't hard, but an explanation of it should have come pretty early I think.

 

[Centaur]

I do not think 3.5 is a failure. I just think there is a significant percentage of people like me who are waiting to buy new books for a good reason. Such as our 3.0 books have fallen apart. Why buy the 3.5 books otherwise? The SRD has made me aware of all the rules changes I want to know about.

If I wait for my books to fall apart, I'll likely never buy the 3.5 books. I still have books from the original versions that are nearly 20 years old and are still in good condition (a little marked up, but otherwise intact).

 

[Vocenoctum]

It could be that WotC just didn't like how much this alienated a lot of the community. It divided and fractured the market along edition lines again -- perhaps the transition didn't go as smoothly as they could have hoped, and it really irked some of the crowd.

I think the "d20 Fracture" is different than that. We have D&D, D20 Modern, bu5t we also have AU, Spycraft, and such. Every new game seems to come out as OGL, with their own special rules set.

As opposed to the d20 license, which is basically behind D&D3.5, most new products are of the new rules set, so I wonder if those that hate 3.5 enough to not buy Book of Exalted Deeds or Complete Warrior, what other stuff do you buy as it's all shifting?

So, 3.5 is getting supported, by Wizards and elsewhere, but I wonder about the other systems popping up all over.

 

[Wolffenjugend]

i would play 1edADnD or 2edADnD or 2.5edADnD over the newer editions in a heartbeat.

And you'd be part of the very few. I never said NO ONE plays them, I said very few still play them.

How many 1E/2E boards or websites are there out there? Not very many at all (especially compared to the number of 3E).

 

[thalmin]

Mind you, some of those people who run game stores around here might be able to give us some feedback on how it has been selling for them.

Cheers!

I'll help if I can. I don't have exact numbers available right now, but our sales of the 3.5 PHB are running very close to what we did with 3.0 for a similar time (first 7 months of availability, similar time of year.) The numbers are also pretty comparible for DMG and MM. I am including sales of the gift set when figuing copies sold.
On initial release, 3E sold better (say first month.) But 3.5 had stronger continued sales.

 

[Olive]

I think the "d20 Fracture" is different than that. We have D&D, D20 Modern, bu5t we also have AU, Spycraft, and such. Every new game seems to come out as OGL, with their own special rules set.

I think that this is very little worry. Relatively few people play anything other than DnD. However, as lots of people play DnD, the worry about DnD fracture between 3 & 3.5 seems more importsant to me. Although the two games systems are so simialr that it doesn't really matter either way...

 

[Ranger REG]

Actually, there is some evidence that the revision has elements in it designed for new players.

Fixing various rules so there is less confusion about how they work is one element of this: if a new player doesn't need to ask a question about how a rule works, then this is an improvement!

Also, if you check out the links in my original post you'll find that Rich Redman was redesigning the DMG in mind of a newbie DM who didn't even have the Adventure Game to lead them into D&D.

And yet we will see a new D&D Basic Game due out later this year (2004). Ri-i-i-i-i-ght.

 

[MerricB]

And yet we will see a new D&D Basic Game due out later this year (2004). Ri-i-i-i-i-ght.

Ranger, the Basic set is coming out FOURTEEN MONTHS after the release of 3.5E. Not at the same time. Fourteen months later. At the time Rich was redesigning the DMG, it wasn't a given that they'd be a new basic set at all!

Go and re-read his comments.

Cheers!

 

[Brown Jenkin]

I think the "d20 Fracture" is different than that. We have D&D, D20 Modern, bu5t we also have AU, Spycraft, and such. Every new game seems to come out as OGL, with their own special rules set.

As opposed to the d20 license, which is basically behind D&D3.5, most new products are of the new rules set, so I wonder if those that hate 3.5 enough to not buy Book of Exalted Deeds or Complete Warrior, what other stuff do you buy as it's all shifting?

So, 3.5 is getting supported, by Wizards and elsewhere, but I wonder about the other systems popping up all over.

As someone who doesn't buy any 3.5 stuff I will answer your question as it relates to me. I used to buy all WotC products as well as many 3rd party products. Now I continue buying AEG Rokugan books since we are in a Rokugan/FR hybrid campaign and all the Rokugan stuff is 3.0 (They would have to rerelease everything to bring it into 3.5 complience so they continue releasing 3.0 stuff). I also buy B5 books, not for the rules but because it is B5. I also buy CoC stuff, but the I buy CoC because I love all things Lovecraft. I will continue buying the last two whether they are d20 or d37 system or CCG. Otherwise I no longer buy anything d20 (I know this hurts the 3rd parties as well as Hasbro, but that is Hasbros fault). I do not have an RPG addiction so to me I don't have to buy anything. I stopped playing D&D for 10 years when 2nd Edition came out and I can do the same again. I am the kind of person Hasbro should fear, since much of WotC success in reviving D&D was bringing back all the players who left because of 2E, and if they alienate these people again they might just stop playing D&D again. I'm sure I will find something else to amuse me whether it is HERO system, CoC d100, board games, or online computer games. So for me the $2000 a year I was spending on d20 is now freed up for completely different things. So as long as I can find 3.0 players I will continue with D&D, and I will judge 4.0 on its own merits when it comes out in a couple of years.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

Since Wizards is not in the habit of publicly discussing the sales of D&D books (except to say "better than expected" when they are pleasantly surprised), the first real information most of us are going to have in this regard is when one of these happens:

• WotC announces they are hiring (good news)
• product announcements are delayed, and are thicker than expected
• WotC announces more layoffs (bad news)
• product announcements are delayed, and are slimmer than expected
• Hasbro sells the D&D brand (VERY bad news)
• products on the schedule start being canceled

I think selling the D&D brand would be VERY VERY GOOD news. You might then have someone in charge of the brand that cares about it and the players instead of a corporate behemoth that only cares about wring every last penny from the name that they can in the short term, long term be damned.