Aust Diamondew
First Post
My group just uses graph paper with letters/numbers/shapes representing characters, critters and objects. We're too poor to afford minatures.
Has anyone done variant combat rules that remove the 5 ft. grid?
- Thread starter Terath Ninir
- Start date
Terath Ninir
Yog Sothoth loves you
Plane Sailing said:
Thank you! I'm not sure if it's quite what I'm looking for, but I will study it and see.
You may want to take a look at this 5 foot step thread over at RPGnet. If you simplify the rules surrounding Attacks of Opportunity, you don't need to track exact locations; you just need to know who's engaged with whom.
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
Cyberzombie said:Thank you! I'm not sure if it's quite what I'm looking for, but I will study it and see.
Let me know what you think of it. I've often wondered about trying it, but I don't think I could get my players to try such a major change. I can't even get them to try the parrying rules which would save their lives
I remember from way back when that you tended to think in similar ways to me on rules issues, so your thoughts on SNAP would be particularly interesting.
Cheers
Felikeries
First Post
as progression continues the players may be met
with a `simple' 2d6 at 2d6 to interpret a move
that will have bad consiquences to their own actions
~thia can allow a DM to vary AoO
~dispell ranged effects
~or simpley imply that foes with good int. make a forethought move
this therefore eliminates confusion at certain times,and to keep
this within boudaries dex. or speed,or burden can modify this
with a `simple' 2d6 at 2d6 to interpret a move
that will have bad consiquences to their own actions
~thia can allow a DM to vary AoO
~dispell ranged effects
~or simpley imply that foes with good int. make a forethought move
this therefore eliminates confusion at certain times,and to keep
this within boudaries dex. or speed,or burden can modify this
Halivar
First Post
I've been playing historical minature war games for a lot longer than I've been playing D&D. In HMWG's, you move mini's (we call them 'figs') around terrain with no grids at all. That said, I don't use mini's in D&D, but I imagine something like this could work:
1 inch = 5 feet
>=90 deg. turn = free action
>90 deg. turn = 5 feet
Then mesure whether someone in in range with a ruler (in HMWG's, we paint 12' dowels in alternating inch colors and call them 'barkers').
If you meant dispensing with mini's all together, I humbly apologize.
1 inch = 5 feet
>=90 deg. turn = free action
>90 deg. turn = 5 feet
Then mesure whether someone in in range with a ruler (in HMWG's, we paint 12' dowels in alternating inch colors and call them 'barkers').
If you meant dispensing with mini's all together, I humbly apologize.
Last edited:
Aaron2 said:
Yeah, it needs work. But it's an awesome idea--you've just broken a mental block i'd been having for months. (OK, i haven't really been trying to get past it, because the "D&D 'Done Right'" project is on a far-back burner, but it has been something i've been wrestling with, when i bother to work on that project.) I really want more fun combat, but also combat with just as many tactical options, just without the combat grid built into the rules. And i hadn't figured out how to do it. I think you have. And, it'd be more consistent with the class-n-skills basis of the rest of the rules, rather than being a tactical-wargame bolted onto an otherwise-modern system.
Now i just have to see what i can do with it. Thanks!
reanjr
First Post
My imagination doesn't impose a grid over reality, so I pretty much forgo grid combat in its entirety. There aren't really any rules changes, per se, just DM adjudication.
The reason a 10ft. step is overpowered (I haven't read the thread, it may already have been stated) is that it is a free action. By giving a free action to someone that can keep them a move action away from their enemies, they have essentially gained the ability to take full round actions every round while not allowing their enemies to do the same.
If there is a problem with the rules that makes such a change so dramatic, it really has nothing to do with the movement system, but instead the action system (the amount a character can do in a single round). That system I HAVE completely overhauled, but by its nature, it requires alot more change than to movement, including the initiative system being revamped.
As someone else mentioned, it is probably best to do something more abstract (especially if you are tring to get away from the miniature-style gaming.
The SAGA system dealt with range and movement in combat fairly nicely by separating distances into ranges. There was melee range, near missile range, far missile range, and artillery range. You could make a move-action have the ability to change ranges by one (from near missile to melee, or near missile to far missile). You may want to add reach range in there as well, to account for reach weapons and creatures.
Melee: Melee attacks can be made and attacks of opportunity are possible. Range is made up of groups of melee ranged combatants who all threaten each other. In general each group can contain no more than four characters of Medium size, 6 of Small size, 8 of Tiny size, 2 of Large or Huge size, or 1 of Collosal size per side (allies and enemies). If a group already contains the full allotment of creatures from your team, you cannot effectively move into melee range (the battle is too pitched or chaotic). By spending a move action you can move to Reach range or Near Missile range, or move to Melee range in a different group that is within Near Missile range. Moving into Melee range in a different group provokes attacks of opportunity from opponents in the group you are leaving.
Reach: Also part of a melee group. They threaten, but are not threatened by everyone in the group. Someone can use a move action to advance upon a Reach range opponent (provoking an attack of opportunity), which pulls the opponent into melee range (he must later move out of the melee group if he wishes to).
Near Missile: Can fire ranged weapons without penalty. By spending a move action, you can close to Reach, Melee, or Far Missile range. Short range spells fall in this range. Maximum thrown weapon range.
Far Missile: Can fire ranged weapons at -6 penalty for distance. By spending a move action, you can move to Near Missile range or Artillery range. Medium range spells fall into this range. Maximum ranged weapon range.
Artillery: Can use spells that are Long range. By spending a move action, you can move to Far Missile range.
Details on attacks of opportunity and speed would have to be worked out, but this would be a good quick, easy, role-playing system to use.
Tell me what you think.
The reason a 10ft. step is overpowered (I haven't read the thread, it may already have been stated) is that it is a free action. By giving a free action to someone that can keep them a move action away from their enemies, they have essentially gained the ability to take full round actions every round while not allowing their enemies to do the same.
If there is a problem with the rules that makes such a change so dramatic, it really has nothing to do with the movement system, but instead the action system (the amount a character can do in a single round). That system I HAVE completely overhauled, but by its nature, it requires alot more change than to movement, including the initiative system being revamped.
As someone else mentioned, it is probably best to do something more abstract (especially if you are tring to get away from the miniature-style gaming.
The SAGA system dealt with range and movement in combat fairly nicely by separating distances into ranges. There was melee range, near missile range, far missile range, and artillery range. You could make a move-action have the ability to change ranges by one (from near missile to melee, or near missile to far missile). You may want to add reach range in there as well, to account for reach weapons and creatures.
Melee: Melee attacks can be made and attacks of opportunity are possible. Range is made up of groups of melee ranged combatants who all threaten each other. In general each group can contain no more than four characters of Medium size, 6 of Small size, 8 of Tiny size, 2 of Large or Huge size, or 1 of Collosal size per side (allies and enemies). If a group already contains the full allotment of creatures from your team, you cannot effectively move into melee range (the battle is too pitched or chaotic). By spending a move action you can move to Reach range or Near Missile range, or move to Melee range in a different group that is within Near Missile range. Moving into Melee range in a different group provokes attacks of opportunity from opponents in the group you are leaving.
Reach: Also part of a melee group. They threaten, but are not threatened by everyone in the group. Someone can use a move action to advance upon a Reach range opponent (provoking an attack of opportunity), which pulls the opponent into melee range (he must later move out of the melee group if he wishes to).
Near Missile: Can fire ranged weapons without penalty. By spending a move action, you can close to Reach, Melee, or Far Missile range. Short range spells fall in this range. Maximum thrown weapon range.
Far Missile: Can fire ranged weapons at -6 penalty for distance. By spending a move action, you can move to Near Missile range or Artillery range. Medium range spells fall into this range. Maximum ranged weapon range.
Artillery: Can use spells that are Long range. By spending a move action, you can move to Far Missile range.
Details on attacks of opportunity and speed would have to be worked out, but this would be a good quick, easy, role-playing system to use.
Tell me what you think.
RangerWickett
Legend
I spent a few hours thinking about this on a road trip once, and came up with this rough system.
There are various Ranges in the combat system.
Melee Stage: This is about a 20- or 30-ft. radius area.
Medium Range: Roughly a 150-ft. radius area, which may contain several melee stages. Moving between two melee stages, or from melee to medium range, is a full round action.
Long Range: Roughly an 800-ft. radius area. Moving from Medium to Long Range takes a full round action, and counts as running.
Tactical Range: This a mile out. It's a range you can manuever at, but not attack from. Only a few weird weapons can be used at this distance.
Strategic Range: Beyond tactical range. This would be used for armies.
When you design combats, you could create different stages. Things like: the bridge, the river, the open field, the exterior of the boathouse, the interior of the boathouse, etc.
Perhaps to keep movement speed important, give changing a range a Difficulty Class. Call it a 'Move check.' Every character has a speed score, which is pretty much the same as what his speed would be in the core rules. But it grants a bonus to 'Move checks,' just like any stat. So if your speed is 30, you have a +10 bonus to Spd-based checks. If you're a halfling in Full Plate (Spd 15), your modifier would be +2.
Making a Move check is a move action.
Move checks between:
Stage and Stage - DC 25
Close and Medium - DC 30
Medium and Long - DC 50
Long to Tactical - DC 200
Tactical to Strategic - DC 1000
You can keep trying turn after turn, adding your results together for each check.
If you are in the same melee stage as a foe, you can make an Engage check, which is basically a Move check modified by how many foes are also in the stage, or who are already engaging the foe. You can attempt to engage once a round as a swift action, or you can spend a move action, automatically engage the foe, and incur an AoO from that foe.
I haven't worked out the specifics yet, but probably some weapons might provide a bonus to engage checks, like longspears, and they might raise the DC of your opponent's attempts to engage you. You could also try to avoid everyone for the round, making your own Move check, which sets the DC to engage you.
Instead of having ranged increments, weapons would have listed penalties for different ranges. So a crossbow might have a -2 penalty if you attack from Medium range, whereas a spear might have -4.
How does that sound?
There are various Ranges in the combat system.
Melee Stage: This is about a 20- or 30-ft. radius area.
Medium Range: Roughly a 150-ft. radius area, which may contain several melee stages. Moving between two melee stages, or from melee to medium range, is a full round action.
Long Range: Roughly an 800-ft. radius area. Moving from Medium to Long Range takes a full round action, and counts as running.
Tactical Range: This a mile out. It's a range you can manuever at, but not attack from. Only a few weird weapons can be used at this distance.
Strategic Range: Beyond tactical range. This would be used for armies.
When you design combats, you could create different stages. Things like: the bridge, the river, the open field, the exterior of the boathouse, the interior of the boathouse, etc.
Perhaps to keep movement speed important, give changing a range a Difficulty Class. Call it a 'Move check.' Every character has a speed score, which is pretty much the same as what his speed would be in the core rules. But it grants a bonus to 'Move checks,' just like any stat. So if your speed is 30, you have a +10 bonus to Spd-based checks. If you're a halfling in Full Plate (Spd 15), your modifier would be +2.
Making a Move check is a move action.
Move checks between:
Stage and Stage - DC 25
Close and Medium - DC 30
Medium and Long - DC 50
Long to Tactical - DC 200
Tactical to Strategic - DC 1000
You can keep trying turn after turn, adding your results together for each check.
If you are in the same melee stage as a foe, you can make an Engage check, which is basically a Move check modified by how many foes are also in the stage, or who are already engaging the foe. You can attempt to engage once a round as a swift action, or you can spend a move action, automatically engage the foe, and incur an AoO from that foe.
I haven't worked out the specifics yet, but probably some weapons might provide a bonus to engage checks, like longspears, and they might raise the DC of your opponent's attempts to engage you. You could also try to avoid everyone for the round, making your own Move check, which sets the DC to engage you.
Instead of having ranged increments, weapons would have listed penalties for different ranges. So a crossbow might have a -2 penalty if you attack from Medium range, whereas a spear might have -4.
How does that sound?
