has anyone played/dm'd shadow run?

[Bull]

My point was that it seems nonsensical, based on what we know of real world technology. There is no reason to believe that anyone in the real world will go insane due to having cybernetic implants. There are already medical procedures (experiments with giving sight to the blind, hearing to the deaf, and some experimental stuff having to do with returning motion to paralyzed people) which tap into the brain, maybe not in the same way as fictional cybernetics, nor as intrusively, but similarly enough to ascertain that it won't drive people insane. I don't mind a limiting factor for game stuff, to keep characters from becoming complete cyborgs with no penalty, but the rationale behind this is shaky. Even in fiction or RPGs, things that simply are inconsistent with the game world hurt the reader's/gamer's abiltiy to suspend disbelief. Magic is nonexistent in the real world, so game rules have to make it up whole cloth; cybernetics, or the beginnings of such technology, actually exist. Game rules for it should try to be consistent with what is known in the real world. It's sort of like if they had made it so that operating any machinery would eventually drive you mad; cool concept, but it goes against what really happens.

Just a note. If you go to 0 Essence, you don't go insane. You die.

Remember, Cyberware isn't just simple stuff like what we have now, a lot of time it's major body replacement (Such as full leg/arm) or major neurological rewiring (Such as Wired Reflexes). TBH< a lot of the Essance stuff is in reality mostly a balancing mechanism, pure and simple. But the idea is that if you replace too much of the body, there's not enough to keep living. Essence, in a way, represents your woul or your spirit, and you lose a little bit of it everytime you put some cyber in your body.

Shadowrun hints at a certain "Detachment" that heavily cybered characters feel... Cyberpsychosis, they call it, but it's not really an insanity, just a loss of any real emotion. And it's not a rule, just a briefly mentioned roleplaying aspect. Cyberpunk 202 I believe is the one that actually has rules for this sort of thing...

Bull

 

[Dicejockey]

For any type of gun-game Shadowrun is my choice. It still has all the fantasy races that you get from D&D. If you want to see something comparable, I think Dragon had an article a while back about Greyhawk in the year 2000. Though its a bit far from SR concepts, like the Matrix and cybergear.

I would be interested in working on a d20 conversion. I love the system and the setting, but my player's are pretty much grounded in d20.

Oh ya someone talked about the novels - grab as many as you can. There are a few "lame ducks" but most are really good.

-dicejockey

 

[Bull]

Mel Odom's SR Novels are good, as are Steve Kenson's. I also really like Mike Stackpole's WOlf and Raven short story compilation, but the stories are a bit divergent from how the rules actually work as they were in part written before the SR 1st Ed rules were even finished, so some of the magic used is a bit funky...

Bull

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Just a note. If you go to 0 Essence, you don't go insane. You die.

Remember, Cyberware isn't just simple stuff like what we have now, a lot of time it's major body replacement (Such as full leg/arm) or major neurological rewiring (Such as Wired Reflexes). TBH< a lot of the Essance stuff is in reality mostly a balancing mechanism, pure and simple. But the idea is that if you replace too much of the body, there's not enough to keep living. Essence, in a way, represents your woul or your spirit, and you lose a little bit of it everytime you put some cyber in your body.

Shadowrun hints at a certain "Detachment" that heavily cybered characters feel... Cyberpsychosis, they call it, but it's not really an insanity, just a loss of any real emotion. And it's not a rule, just a briefly mentioned roleplaying aspect. Cyberpunk 202 I believe is the one that actually has rules for this sort of thing...

Bull

Yes, I addressed my screw-up in a later post. But the argument is still the same. Even assuming cyberware is much more invasive than what we have now, what we have now still is similar enough in nature to the concept of cyberware to let us know that it is unlikely for anyone to die (or go insane, like in CP) due to too much cyber stuff. In fact, it seems that such stuff will prolong life, if anything.

Again, I like the setting for Shadowrun. I just think this game mechanic doesn't work - for me. If you like it, that's great.

 

[Kesh]

Ahhh, Shadowrun. I have many fond memories of this game. And yes, 3e is a major improvement over the previous editions.

The game is definitely a matter of taste, though. Most people either love it or hate it, for one reason or another. Personally, I love it. The mechanics are easy to learn, the world is very rich and full of variety, and you can play the game however you want. Greedy mercenaries, bloodthirsty gangers, average joes trying to live with the odds stacked against them, or bigger-than-life heroes trying to save the world from nasties.

A d20 conversion wouldn't be terribly difficult. You'd need a Wount Point/Vitality Point system rather than HP. The skill system would be a breeze to convert, after realigning some of the Abilities to match d20 (Str-Str, Quickness-Dexterity, etc.). Probably the hardest thing to convert would be the magic system or the weapons, but even that's not too bad. The biggest problem would be preventing the import of D&D or Star Wars items into the game... a Deck of Many Things is just insanely out of proportion to the magic level of Shadowrun, and a blaster is beyond their technology (energy weapons are the size of a Ghostbusters power pack).

Depending on how it's played, SR can either be very lethal, or the characters may be almost impossible to kill. Again, it's something the GM can control a bit.

Regarding the super-mage mentioned earlier, he's probably bending the rules a bit. Cyberware actually makes it harder to resist drain from spellcasting, and if his spells are that powerful he should be taking some nasty drain.

 

[Bull]

Yes, I addressed my screw-up in a later post. But the argument is still the same. Even assuming cyberware is much more invasive than what we have now, what we have now still is similar enough in nature to the concept of cyberware to let us know that it is unlikely for anyone to die (or go insane, like in CP) due to too much cyber stuff. In fact, it seems that such stuff will prolong life, if anything.

Again, I like the setting for Shadowrun. I just think this game mechanic doesn't work - for me. If you like it, that's great.

That's cool. I replied before I finished reading the thread (You'ld think I'd know better by now ).

<shrug> I guess I've always been ok with suspending my disbelief. Plus, as a fledging game designer myself, I can fully understand and accept certain things for the purpose of game balance.

Bull

 

[ColonelHardisson]

That's cool. I replied before I finished reading the thread (You'ld think I'd know better by now ).

<shrug> I guess I've always been ok with suspending my disbelief. Plus, as a fledging game designer myself, I can fully understand and accept certain things for the purpose of game balance.

Bull

What's weird is that normally I'd be the first to rationalize why such a limitation is good from a game mechanic standpoint. In this case, my opinion is just the opposite. I guess there is no other way to limit characters from actually replacing their entire bodies with cyberware, though. At least I can't think of any ways right now that aren't as arbitrary.