D&D General Has anyone seen this Wired article about using D&D to teach AIs?

[Coroc]

Thank you very much! I had the misfortune of coming across some writings about AI from some hardcore "Singularitarians" right after finding that Wired article (specifically some stuff about Ray Kurzweil) and it triggered my BS overflow gag reflex until I just had to write something about it. I am in no way a mind/body dualist and don't buy into quantum consciousness woo or any kind of spirit or soul, but there is a whole lot more to the mind and consciousness than processing power and it's something that software alone could never be made to emulate. The "hardware" structure of the brain and body as a whole is what makes it possible.

For some good reading on the subject, check this out:

Singularity

A singularity, as most commonly used, is a point at which expected rules break down. The term comes from mathematics, where a point on an otherwise continuous slope is of undefined or infinite value; such a point is known as a singularity.

rationalwiki.org

And I will make sure to check those books ! I've heard of Lem, of course, but never gotten around to reading any of his work. I will definitely work on correcting that mistake!

Well I read just yesterday of some scientist of the "quantum fraction" who postulated that several dependencies in quantum mechanics makes him believe that there are parallel universes and also he stated that in his opinion there was no big bang but the universe is ever there infinite and a place where time may run forward and back (no deeper explanations in the article).

Deriving from logic and experience I on contraire believe that there is some singularity who caused the big bang out of the nothing. My view on that is a bit difficult to understand since close to the time 0 physical laws did not yet apply according to widely accepted theories:
Imagine the nothing, the absolute "nothing" and even time as a physical parameter does not exist. Still from statistics we know that there is no such thing as a probability of zero.
So if you got the nothing for an "eternity of time" then the probability that something like the big bang could happen becomes 1 since you "wait so long". (Especially when the singularity said let there be light).

I think that basically the singularity/god is the like base wave of the universe, a wave with infinite wavelength, causing an impulse answer of infinite energy and time of zero (the big bang). Everything else, all matter, energy and life is just harmonics.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

They should teach AI by having them play the Paranoia RPG. That would be a really good idea.

 

[R_J_K75]

Well I read just yesterday of some scientist of the "quantum fraction" who postulated that several dependencies in quantum mechanics makes him believe that there are parallel universes and also he stated that in his opinion there was no big bang but the universe is ever there infinite and a place where time may run forward and back (no deeper explanations in the article).

Deriving from logic and experience I on contraire believe that there is some singularity who caused the big bang out of the nothing. My view on that is a bit difficult to understand since close to the time 0 physical laws did not yet apply according to widely accepted theories:
Imagine the nothing, the absolute "nothing" and even time as a physical parameter does not exist. Still from statistics we know that there is no such thing as a probability of zero.
So if you got the nothing for an "eternity of time" then the probability that something like the big bang could happen becomes 1 since you "wait so long". (Especially when the singularity said let there be light).

I think that basically the singularity/god is the like base wave of the universe, a wave with infinite wavelength, causing an impulse answer of infinite energy and time of zero (the big bang). Everything else, all matter, energy and life is just harmonics.

Don't take the brown acid, the brown acid is bad man.

 

[CapnZapp]

Where will it end?

 

[Coroc]

Don't take the brown acid, the brown acid is bad man.

Totally sober, I know some of it sounds like weird new age stuff, but it is not.

 

[Coroc]

View attachment 119118

But only if you take the blue pill, if you take the red pill it will look ..... less cozy and more purpose orientated. There might be some more tubes and cables involved also.

 

[R_J_K75]

Totally sober, I know some of it sounds like weird new age stuff, but it is not.

I know, I read a few of those type of books about 15-20 years ago but most of it went over my head. Its interesting but hard to understand if you're the casual reader.

 

[Aaron L]

Well I read just yesterday of some scientist of the "quantum fraction" who postulated that several dependencies in quantum mechanics makes him believe that there are parallel universes and also he stated that in his opinion there was no big bang but the universe is ever there infinite and a place where time may run forward and back (no deeper explanations in the article)...

My fault, I should have been more specific; I wasn't talking about a cosmological singularity, a Black Hole or the Big Bang; I was referring to the concept of the Technological Singularity believed in by some people, which is a hypothetical event supposed to occur when the first true sapient hard AI is created, at which point the first thing it will do is either upgrade itself or create a second generation AI that is smarter than itself, which will supposedly then create an explosion of ever-increasingly smarter AIs that will outstrip human intelligence so quickly and so completely that we can have no way of predicting what would happen beyond that point. In other words, Judgement Day from Terminator.

I don't believe such a thing will ever happen, or is even possible. For one thing the whole concept of the Singularity (they like to capitalize it) relies on the assumption that intelligence vastly superior to human-level is even possible in the first place. That's a big assumption to make, that it is possible for there to be a superior level of consciousness beyond human consciousness that we can't comprehend, and that these AIs will achieve it. The Singularitarians love to over-extrapolate based on analogies and they use the analogy that the AIs will be to humans as humans are to chimps. However, it just might be that a level of super-consciousness like that isn't even possible, and that there just isn't any room to be very much smarter than the smartest human beings. The assumption that meta-human super-consciousness is even possible is a rather large one to make. It also relies on the assumption that the AIs will be able to quickly and easily improve upon their own intelligence by orders of magnitude, and that is also another huge assumption to make.

Essentially the whole idea of the Singularity is a technofetishist utopia built upon a whole lot of assumptions (even though I would call it a nightmarish dystopia) that is adhered to with religious fervor by some people, including quite a few Silicon Valley tech-bros.

There are even certain groups out there that exist entirely to hasten the arrival of the Singularity, on the assumption that it is inevitable and, when it happens, the AI that results will essentially have godlike powers and will be able to create a giant, eternal computer simulation inside itself containing perfectly simulated mathematical mental duplicates of every person who has ever existed, and then the AI will use this giant simulation to eternally punish the computer simulations of every person who ever lived who did not actively work toward ensuring its creation as quickly as possible. So, because they do not want to have their future computer simulation-selves damned to eternal punishment. Because they honestly they believe that, since it will be a perfect simulation of themselves, it will essentially be them experiencing the eternal punishment of Future Computer Hell... persistence of identity and the metaphysically questionable idea of such a thing be damned. So they devote all of their resources to making sure that the Singularity happens as soon as possible, so that the Future God AI won't be mad at them when it arrives and put them in Simulated Computer Hell in its imagination for all eternity (or until the universe ends... but a lot of them also believe the AI will be so smart it will figure out a way to either prevent that, or preserve itself through the end of the universe.)

It's basically the absolute worst kind of I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream scenario, but they fervently believe in it being absolutely real and inevitable.

There's a whole lot of delusional techno-religious utopianism/dystopianism going on with it, and it's all mixed up with transhumanist/cyborg fetish futurism. I've read that there are people who have bankrupted themselves from donating more money than they could afford to these groups because they fear the inevitable coming of the Singularity Future God AI so much. When the rational reality is that the whole thing is completely evitable, and in fact highly, highly unlikely.

 

[Coroc]

I know, I read a few of those type of books about 15-20 years ago but most of it went over my head. Its interesting but hard to understand if you're the casual reader.

I did not get this from books, my theory is statistics (and a bit of belief so I might be wrong anyway).

But to expand on the statistics

Example: If you drop some china mug to a concrete floor, there is a probability that it will smash in several pieces, but the pieces might recoil from the floor and jump up in a way that they assemble themselves loosely that the mug will look as being undamaged except for the rupture marks.
The chance for that to happen is incredible low but not zero.
The more often you repeat that, the higher the chance that you will get that result once.

or

Give a typewriter (or a PC with a printer) to a chimpanzee who shall type random letters.
If you hypothetically got a n eternity of time doing that, the chance for the monkey typing the whole works of Shakespeare, in sequence, to the letter just by chance is not zero.

There are mathematical proofs to that concepts, I cannot cite any unfortunately

So I did conclude, if you got a void, emptiness, and wait for a eternity then something might happen there.

In other words, the chance of a singularity existing in our universe at some given point in time is not zero. Since a singularity by definition is an eternal being, if it exists at any point in time it will exist for all "time".

 

[R_J_K75]

My fault, I should have been more specific; I wasn't talking about a cosmological singularity, a Black Hole or the Big Bang; I was referring to the concept of the Technological Singularity believed in by some people, which is a hypothetical event supposed to occur when the first true sapient hard AI is created, at which point the first thing it will do is either upgrade itself or create a second generation AI that is smarter than itself, which will supposedly then create an explosion of ever-increasingly smarter AIs that will outstrip human intelligence so quickly and so completely that we can have no way of predicting what would happen beyond that point. In other words, Judgement Day from Terminator.

I don't believe such a thing will ever happen, or is even possible. For one thing the whole concept of the Singularity (they like to capitalize it) relies on the assumption that intelligence vastly superior to human-level is even possible in the first place. That's a big assumption to make, that it is possible for there to be a superior level of consciousness beyond human consciousness that we can't comprehend, and that these AIs will achieve it. The Singularitarians love to over-extrapolate based on analogies and they use the analogy that the AIs will be to humans as humans are to chimps. However, it just might be that a level of super-consciousness like that isn't even possible, and that there just isn't any room to be very much smarter than the smartest human beings. The assumption that meta-human super-consciousness is even possible is a rather large one to make. It also relies on the assumption that the AIs will be able to quickly and easily improve upon their own intelligence by orders of magnitude, and that is also another huge assumption to make.

Essentially the whole idea of the Singularity is a technofetishist utopia built upon a whole lot of assumptions (even though I would call it a nightmarish dystopia) that is adhered to with religious fervor by some people, including quite a few Silicon Valley tech-bros.

There are even certain groups out there that exist entirely to hasten the arrival of the Singularity, on the assumption that it is inevitable and, when it happens, the AI that results will essentially have godlike powers and will be able to create a giant, eternal computer simulation inside itself containing perfectly simulated mathematical mental duplicates of every person who has ever existed, and then the AI will use this giant simulation to eternally punish the computer simulations of every person who ever lived who did not actively work toward ensuring its creation as quickly as possible. So, because they do not want to have their future computer simulation-selves damned to eternal punishment. Because they honestly they believe that, since it will be a perfect simulation of themselves, it will essentially be them experiencing the eternal punishment of Future Computer Hell... persistence of identity and the metaphysically questionable idea of such a thing be damned. So they devote all of their resources to making sure that the Singularity happens as soon as possible, so that the Future God AI won't be mad at them when it arrives and put them in Simulated Computer Hell in its imagination for all eternity (or until the universe ends... but a lot of them also believe the AI will be so smart it will figure out a way to either prevent that, or preserve itself through the end of the universe.)

It's basically the absolute worst kind of I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream scenario, but they fervently believe in it being absolutely real and inevitable.

There's a whole lot of delusional techno-religious utopianism/dystopianism going on with it, and it's all mixed up with transhumanist/cyborg fetish futurism. I've read that there are people who have bankrupted themselves from donating more money than they could afford to these groups because they fear the inevitable coming of the Singularity Future God AI so much. When the rational reality is that the whole thing is completely evitable, and in fact highly, highly unlikely.

And I thought the Branch Davidian and Heavens Gate were nuts. Touche. Im sure these are the same people that have a hard time getting their TV remote to work.

 

[DwarfHammer]

My fault, I should have been more specific; I wasn't talking about a cosmological singularity, a Black Hole or the Big Bang; I was referring to the concept of the Technological Singularity believed in by some people, which is a hypothetical event supposed to occur when the first true sapient hard AI is created, at which point the first thing it will do is either upgrade itself or create a second generation AI that is smarter than itself, which will supposedly then create an explosion of ever-increasingly smarter AIs that will outstrip human intelligence so quickly and so completely that we can have no way of predicting what would happen beyond that point. In other words, Judgement Day from Terminator.

I don't believe such a thing will ever happen, or is even possible. For one thing the whole concept of the Singularity (they like to capitalize it) relies on the assumption that intelligence vastly superior to human-level is even possible in the first place. That's a big assumption to make, that it is possible for there to be a superior level of consciousness beyond human consciousness that we can't comprehend, and that these AIs will achieve it. The Singularitarians love to over-extrapolate based on analogies and they use the analogy that the AIs will be to humans as humans are to chimps. However, it just might be that a level of super-consciousness like that isn't even possible, and that there just isn't any room to be very much smarter than the smartest human beings. The assumption that meta-human super-consciousness is even possible is a rather large one to make. It also relies on the assumption that the AIs will be able to quickly and easily improve upon their own intelligence by orders of magnitude, and that is also another huge assumption to make.

Essentially the whole idea of the Singularity is a technofetishist utopia built upon a whole lot of assumptions (even though I would call it a nightmarish dystopia) that is adhered to with religious fervor by some people, including quite a few Silicon Valley tech-bros.

There are even certain groups out there that exist entirely to hasten the arrival of the Singularity, on the assumption that it is inevitable and, when it happens, the AI that results will essentially have godlike powers and will be able to create a giant, eternal computer simulation inside itself containing perfectly simulated mathematical mental duplicates of every person who has ever existed, and then the AI will use this giant simulation to eternally punish the computer simulations of every person who ever lived who did not actively work toward ensuring its creation as quickly as possible. So, because they do not want to have their future computer simulation-selves damned to eternal punishment. Because they honestly they believe that, since it will be a perfect simulation of themselves, it will essentially be them experiencing the eternal punishment of Future Computer Hell... persistence of identity and the metaphysically questionable idea of such a thing be damned. So they devote all of their resources to making sure that the Singularity happens as soon as possible, so that the Future God AI won't be mad at them when it arrives and put them in Simulated Computer Hell in its imagination for all eternity (or until the universe ends... but a lot of them also believe the AI will be so smart it will figure out a way to either prevent that, or preserve itself through the end of the universe.)

It's basically the absolute worst kind of I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream scenario, but they fervently believe in it being absolutely real and inevitable.

There's a whole lot of delusional techno-religious utopianism/dystopianism going on with it, and it's all mixed up with transhumanist/cyborg fetish futurism. I've read that there are people who have bankrupted themselves from donating more money than they could afford to these groups because they fear the inevitable coming of the Singularity Future God AI so much. When the rational reality is that the whole thing is completely evitable, and in fact highly, highly unlikely.

I think the movie transcendence is what will happen. More of a merger. But I think it is a very long way off.

 

[Coroc]

My fault, I should have been more specific; I wasn't talking about a cosmological singularity, a Black Hole or the Big Bang; I was referring to the concept of the Technological Singularity believed in by some people, which is a hypothetical event supposed to occur when the first true sapient hard AI is created, at which point the first thing it will do is either upgrade itself or create a second generation AI that is smarter than itself, which will supposedly then create an explosion of ever-increasingly smarter AIs that will outstrip human intelligence so quickly and so completely that we can have no way of predicting what would happen beyond that point. In other words, Judgement Day from Terminator.

I don't believe such a thing will ever happen, or is even possible. For one thing the whole concept of the Singularity (they like to capitalize it) relies on the assumption that intelligence vastly superior to human-level is even possible in the first place. That's a big assumption to make, that it is possible for there to be a superior level of consciousness beyond human consciousness that we can't comprehend, and that these AIs will achieve it. The Singularitarians love to over-extrapolate based on analogies and they use the analogy that the AIs will be to humans as humans are to chimps. However, it just might be that a level of super-consciousness like that isn't even possible, and that there just isn't any room to be very much smarter than the smartest human beings. The assumption that meta-human super-consciousness is even possible is a rather large one to make. It also relies on the assumption that the AIs will be able to quickly and easily improve upon their own intelligence by orders of magnitude, and that is also another huge assumption to make.

Essentially the whole idea of the Singularity is a technofetishist utopia built upon a whole lot of assumptions (even though I would call it a nightmarish dystopia) that is adhered to with religious fervor by some people, including quite a few Silicon Valley tech-bros.

There are even certain groups out there that exist entirely to hasten the arrival of the Singularity, on the assumption that it is inevitable and, when it happens, the AI that results will essentially have godlike powers and will be able to create a giant, eternal computer simulation inside itself containing perfectly simulated mathematical mental duplicates of every person who has ever existed, and then the AI will use this giant simulation to eternally punish the computer simulations of every person who ever lived who did not actively work toward ensuring its creation as quickly as possible. So, because they do not want to have their future computer simulation-selves damned to eternal punishment. Because they honestly they believe that, since it will be a perfect simulation of themselves, it will essentially be them experiencing the eternal punishment of Future Computer Hell... persistence of identity and the metaphysically questionable idea of such a thing be damned. So they devote all of their resources to making sure that the Singularity happens as soon as possible, so that the Future God AI won't be mad at them when it arrives and put them in Simulated Computer Hell in its imagination for all eternity (or until the universe ends... but a lot of them also believe the AI will be so smart it will figure out a way to either prevent that, or preserve itself through the end of the universe.)

It's basically the absolute worst kind of I Have No Mouth And I Must Scream scenario, but they fervently believe in it being absolutely real and inevitable.

There's a whole lot of delusional techno-religious utopianism/dystopianism going on with it, and it's all mixed up with transhumanist/cyborg fetish futurism. I've read that there are people who have bankrupted themselves from donating more money than they could afford to these groups because they fear the inevitable coming of the Singularity Future God AI so much. When the rational reality is that the whole thing is completely evitable, and in fact highly, highly unlikely.

I did get you quite clearly, and understood you were referring mainly to those people believing they can create their AI "god". You would love to read Lem that is one of his favored topics, Cybernetical beings improving themselves.

The most recent facts I heard about these topics is that "quantum computing" and "AI" is mainly a faster normal computing, by using methods like "tunneling" and estimating likely outputs and such.
It still needs programming though.

There is creepy pasta (or truth) out there about two "AI"s which have developed their own code to communicate with each other. So no one can interpret what they communicate anymore.

But as you wrote: we humans have some "system components" by default that an A.I. has not:
Sensors and actors. Our eyes ears, nerve system, and our arms legs muscles etc.
And it is the totality of the system as you wrote which makes the whole. No programmer can program intuition or feelings.

As long as someone could pull the plug on an A.I. it can never be almighty and all knowing.

 

[R_J_K75]

I did not get this from books, my theory is statistics (and a bit of belief so I might be wrong anyway).

But to expand on the statistics

Example: If you drop some china mug to a concrete floor, there is a probability that it will smash in several pieces, but the pieces might recoil from the floor and jump up in a way that they assemble themselves loosely that the mug will look as being undamaged except for the rupture marks.
The chance for that to happen is incredible low but not zero.
The more often you repeat that, the higher the chance that you will get that result once.

or

Give a typewriter (or a PC with a printer) to a chimpanzee who shall type random letters.
If you hypothetically got a n eternity of time doing that, the chance for the monkey typing the whole works of Shakespeare, in sequence, to the letter just by chance is not zero.

There are mathematical proofs to that concepts, I cannot cite any unfortunately

So I did conclude, if you got a void, emptiness, and wait for a eternity then something might happen there.

In other words, the chance of a singularity existing in our universe at some given point in time is not zero. Since a singularity by definition is an eternal being, if it exists at any point in time it will exist for all "time".

Did you write a paper, do research or just come up with this idea in your spare time?

 

[Coroc]

Did you write a paper, do research or just come up with this idea in your spare time?

I did just get this idea in my spare time.

 

[R_J_K75]

I did just get this idea in my spare time.

Id be interested in what you come up with if you really put your mind to it.

 

[Beleriphon]

On signularity with AI, I suspect we'll eventually end up with a situation, possibly with quantum computing, where somebody designs a system that is intelligent. I mean if you want to see the crazy side of things look a the last three (I think three) seasons of Person of Interest. Awesome show BTW just on principle.

 

[Oofta]

If we ever get a true AI - and that's a big if - we don't know how it will pan out. Sci-Fi writers have been writing about this since the 50s.

If Aasimov is right, they will be benevolent and do what they can to help us. Or maybe it will be like the short story (Heinlein?) where they created an AI and the first question was "Is there a god?" The response? "There is now".

More likely at least for the foreseeable future is that we'll have potentially flawed expert systems that will fill niches but never be truly sentient. Unless of course someone somewhere has already achieved the singularity and we're just living in a holographic version of The Sims.

 

[Galendril]

Google created an AI which turned into a Nazi. So, I'm not too hopeful for an AI DM.

 

[Coroc]

Id be interested in what you come up with if you really put your mind to it.

See, the problem is that we will probably never be able to prove these kinds of theories properly.

We see the universe as an infinite thing, imagine for a moment it is not, and somehow fits into some circular object (neglecting spatial distortion for that, since it has no influence but the outer limit of this object is the event horizon). Now imagine there are lots of those bubbles. Even if you could take a look into every corner of our universe you would never be aware that there are others, the event horizon would prevent this.

One counter of atheists, but i do not want to get into any kind of religious discussion here, is that if there is some higher being, why all that suffering and death, well the answer is obviously, else we would not be free willed (although some say we aren't) and death is a kind of safeguard to prevent eternal suffering.

One of the best proofs of some higher being i read about so far is, that if the immense temperature at the big bang had only been a single degree higher or lower, then the universe could not have been created. Someone did some mathemathical proof on that one.

Another fascinating fact is, that planets and their circular orbits around stars, are only possible in a three dimensional (distance wise) universe, it would not work in a 4- , 5- or two dimensional system.

It might be, that our solar system is thrown right into its positions so to enable higher forms of life to exist on earth. I read, that if the distance of earth to the sun were somewhat closer or further away, life could not exist in that way on earth.

But i tell you one more thing, for most aspects of our daily lifes all these theories and facts are totally unimportant. Care most for those close to you, and your immediate suroundings. Because most probably those are the things you can have influence on.
Do not try to get upset or to change things on the other side of the planet, it will not work, if you are some common being doing a normal job and daily life like me, which i assume you are. It is good to be informed about all sorts of stuff, but it is also good not to get involved to much in things you cannot alter.

 

[slobster]

Oh great, now that AI's are getting involved how am I going to continue my high D&D win percentage? Technology ruins everything.