D&D 5E Has D&D Combat Always Been Slow?

[Asisreo]

magic missile is self correcting, just change two letters
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Something tells me that Orcs aren't all equipped with common magic items, especially not ones designed for one specific spell.

It also doesn't really address damage-dealing save spells.

 

[Argyle King]

The problem comes in the form of spells. This does nothing for spells that do damage on successful saves. Suddenly, the wizard is downing orcs with only 2 magic missile darts while they'd have to usually do 2 whole castings just to take one down.

This problem is exasperated at higher levels. If suddenly Ogre have 20AC but 20HP for example, well the martial might be killing the same "effective DPR" but the wizard's DPR has increased dramatically by proxy. Even if the Ogre has higher saves, the wizard is just more effective at dealing damage than the martial is.


You could try to remove the half-at-save property, but while its still effectively the same, you run the psychology of a spellcaster possibly using a resource for basic damage and doing absolutely nothing. Damage is worth less than the control options they have already. Now they either have to increase the damage of spells like fireball even more which could get out of hand or just keep the system with an unsatisfactory feeling for any blasting-type casters.

That's a good point, and it was the issue with high-level 3rd Edition. Touch AC was ridiculously easy for wizards to hit.

 

[Ace]

Also, has anyone noticed how quiet combats are if taking a perspective relative to character time. Like, a fight lasts for roughly half a minute and nobody says anything to anyone? No "you'll pay for that!" Or "Catch me if you can!" Or "By the power of the moon, I will punish you!"

My point is that roleplay and story movement should be a part of combat.

In fact, I feel people might try to divide the pillars when they weren't meant to be played separately. Give the player wiggle-room to describe how exactly they want to stab the orc and let them be the action hero they imagined themselves to be.

And when you roleplay as a DM, make sure the monsters talk to the players. "How dare you make me bleed?!" "Men, focus your fire on the spellcaster!" "Foolish witch, your charms will not hold me." "I...I see stars." Also have them physically react to their actions. If they are insulted, let your monsters snarl. If they're excited, let them smirk.

Someone said its about the feeling of hopelessness and I agree, but I don't think HP/AC dynamics is the most important aspect. What's important is that your players feel like they're making an impact. Within 3-5 rounds of combat, they don't get a great idea of their hit-chance or damage percentage but they're hoping their attacks had some sort of affect on the creature, even if its more psychological than physical.

Real combat situations are often to frantic for much trash talk or much talk beyond brief signals, grunts groans and screams . In game I suppose this makes things realistic though if you are going for a cinematic vibe it can be disappointing.

If you want players to do this you kind of need to encourage it a bit and take into account that not all players can ad-lib cool dialog. Encouraging players to write down cool phrases and doing it yourself cab create the atmosphere you want.

 

[Zsong]

Real combat situations are often to frantic for much trash talk or much talk beyond brief signals, grunts groans and screams . In game I suppose this makes things realistic though if you are going for a cinematic vibe it can be disappointing.

If you want players to do this you kind of need to encourage it a bit and take into account that not all players can ad-lib cool dialog. Encouraging players to write down cool phrases and doing it yourself cab create the atmosphere you want.

We allow communication in combat to be like the panels in a comic book. Keep it brief and to the point. But a cool monologue can be allowed. Not that it is ever much of a problem.

 

[DND_Reborn]

The problem comes in the form of spells. This does nothing for spells that do damage on successful saves. Suddenly, the wizard is downing orcs with only 2 magic missile darts while they'd have to usually do 2 whole castings just to take one down.

This problem is exasperated at higher levels. If suddenly Ogre have 20AC but 20HP for example, well the martial might be killing the same "effective DPR" but the wizard's DPR has increased dramatically by proxy. Even if the Ogre has higher saves, the wizard is just more effective at dealing damage than the martial is.


You could try to remove the half-at-save property, but while its still effectively the same, you run the psychology of a spellcaster possibly using a resource for basic damage and doing absolutely nothing. Damage is worth less than the control options they have already. Now they either have to increase the damage of spells like fireball even more which could get out of hand or just keep the system with an unsatisfactory feeling for any blasting-type casters.

Spells aren't a problem at all. Due to the half HP, magic is more powerful, but that is a feature--not a bug.

It is also the reason why every creature has proficiency in all saves. For spells, such as fireball, which allow saves, it helps mitigate the damage a bit. Anyway, we've been using these rules in our online game for several months now without any issue so far. As far as something like magic missile, an orc in AD&D had only 5 HP so two missiles would take the orc out. As we get to higher levels, things might unfold that need to be addressed, but right now we are just enjoying a faster, more pleasant game.

You mention the Ogre. In AD&D, the Ogre had 19 hp and your average fireball did 17.5 (5d6) at level 5 and more higher up. There is about a 40% chance the rolled damage will be 19 or greater, so on a failed save (65% IIRC) the Ogre is dead.

By comparison, with my system the Ogre has 29 hp and your average fireball does 28 (8d6) damage. Rolling enough damage to kill the Ogre is about 46% (close to AD&D 40%) and it against a DC 14 (+6 modifier; +3 proficiency, +3 INT) is the same save failed (65%).

Another classic spell is Sleep. In AD&D, you had a 50/50 chance of putting an Ogre to sleep. In 5E, with 59 HP, it is impossible unless you upcast (what a waste, you would need to use a 5th level slot (13d8) for a 50/50 chance to total 59 or better!).

By comparison, my way you have only about a 12% chance of rolling 29 points or higher on 5d8, but at least there is a chance! FWIW, cast it at 2nd level (7d8) and you have better than a 50/50 chance of putting an Ogre to sleep.

It is pretty close. I know it is just a couple examples, but although there might be differences, the feel and impact is fine IME. Sure, changes might be in the future (I'd be surprised if there wasn't) but for now it works well.

 

[DND_Reborn]

+1 bonus for each set of flanking allies around a target, to a max bonus of +4.

I think this combined with advantage for flanking would be too much, but you can always try it out and see how it feels.

 

[Asisreo]

Real combat situations are often to frantic for much trash talk or much talk beyond brief signals, grunts groans and screams . In game I suppose this makes things realistic though if you are going for a cinematic vibe it can be disappointing.

If you want players to do this you kind of need to encourage it a bit and take into account that not all players can ad-lib cool dialog. Encouraging players to write down cool phrases and doing it yourself cab create the atmosphere you want.

Yeah, for every character I make, I literally have a list of "cool phrases and quips" to say for any character when they do basically anything influential ever. Get a crit: "Batter up!" Get bloodied: "Damned fool!" Kill a person: "Ugh, I got frickin' blood on my shoes!"

I find it very fun to just give very small bursts of character from my PC and I love roleplaying very briefly mid-combat. I'm also the type to suggest to the enemy to surrender when they're being obviously defeated. If I'm good, I'm doing it to let them live. If I'm evil, I'll probably sell them off to whatever eats the thing I captured. Or I'll lie and kill it anyways while its guard is down.

But I thrive off of showcase my character with any opportunity that feels appropriate, so usually when my friends are reluctant, they'll hop in when they see me do it.

 

[Asisreo]

Spells aren't a problem at all. Due to the half HP, magic is more powerful, but that is a feature--not a bug.

It is also the reason why every creature has proficiency in all saves. For spells, such as fireball, which allow saves, it helps mitigate the damage a bit. Anyway, we've been using these rules in our online game for several months now without any issue so far. As far as something like magic missile, an orc in AD&D had only 5 HP so two missiles would take the orc out. As we get to higher levels, things might unfold that need to be addressed, but right now we are just enjoying a faster, more pleasant game.

You mention the Ogre. In AD&D, the Ogre had 19 hp and your average fireball did 17.5 (5d6) at level 5 and more higher up. There is about a 40% chance the rolled damage will be 19 or greater, so on a failed save (65% IIRC) the Ogre is dead.

By comparison, with my system the Ogre has 29 hp and your average fireball does 28 (8d6) damage. Rolling enough damage to kill the Ogre is about 46% (close to AD&D 40%) and it against a DC 14 (+6 modifier; +3 proficiency, +3 INT) is the same save failed (65%).

It is nearly identical. I know it is just one example, but although there might be differences, the feel and impact is fine IME. Sure, changes might be in the future (I'd be surprised if there wasn't) but for now it works well.

I'm not discounting your personal experience with your rule, but I don't want everything from AD&D to be automatically transferred to 5e. I think its still a bit overtuned for this edition overall with bounded accuracy.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I'm not discounting your personal experience with your rule, but I don't want everything from AD&D to be automatically transferred to 5e. I think its still a bit overtuned for this edition overall with bounded accuracy.

Fair enough. I'm just clarifying that what you see as a potential issue, is actually by design.

Frankly, my goal is to make 5E as close to AD&D in the feel as possible, but tastes vary and I appreciate the words of caution. Like I said, I might have to tweak things more as we get further along (we are nearly 8th level) so we'll see.

 

[tetrasodium]

I'm not discounting your personal experience with your rule, but I don't want everything from AD&D to be automatically transferred to 5e. I think its still a bit overtuned for this edition overall with bounded accuracy.

Bounded accuracy pegged to the spherical cow of a game with no feats & no magic items is not exactly a good thing because the result is a magic item budget of zero for the gm to play with over the course of an entire campaign before the system breaks down is less than zero due to feats. Your talking about preserving a bit of theorycrafted design that is the embodiment of garbage in garbage out because something is correcting some of the bad inputs.