D&D 5E Has D&D Combat Always Been Slow?

[DND_Reborn]

the self correcting item churn was a happy side effect of having +N attribute/weapon bonuses expected by the system at various breakpoint levels. It's notable because the "naive in the extreme" choice to peg ba to no feats no magic items gets rid of it while failing at the one thing it's supposed to accomplish through the use of a garbage baseline almost nobody uses.

IMO the only thing that should be a consideration in the baseline for development is proficiency bonus. As you level, you get better. Simple.

Assuming ASI's will be spent to boost your primary ability score instead of spending it on a feat is not the case at least 80% of the time. Feats are typically chosen and the design makes people feel like bumping via ASI is needed just to keep pace with the game.

 

[Oofta]

Which does nothing to change the fact that 5e removed the system of movement/action based AoOs that allowed a melee character to fill that role to some degree instead of always needing a wizard to web/wall of fire/etc because only move out of reach of a hostile creature & make a ranged attack still provoke an AoO or the fact that the no longer present system contributed some level of strategy discussion during a fight from time to time.

If only there were some kind of option, a feat maybe that could stop a creature's movement on a opportunity attack. Maybe if the PC could be a sentinel standing guard.

 

[tetrasodium]

All this means to me is that the exact forms of strategy and tactics need to be different because the rules are different. Those goals (like block the way to the room) and ways to try to reach them still exist, even if five foot steps and AoOs are not the default way in the latest edition. They weren't in 1E or 2E either.

if by "different" you mean "supplied by a different class so martials should just shut up, charge in, & faeroll badguys till someone dies" sure, but that's hardly the point...

@6ENow! equipment can work that way in fate but it's silly to think that style of mere fluff would work well for d&d or that the ludicrously powerful aspects tied to it in fate could be bolted onto d&d while still being playable or looking like d&d

 

[Neonchameleon]

I wasn't criticizing people who use that language but I do think what you are describing is as idiosyncratic as what I was describing as what was needed for my own group's immersion. However, Aragorn or any fantasy hero of literature or film or comics, is more likely to say "We need to keep them out of that room!" rather than "We need someone to use their 'denial of area' ability over there!" That may or may not emulate actual trained warriors, but I don't care.

On the other hand this isn't contradictory.

Aragon thinks: We need to deny that area to the orcs
Aragorn says: Legolas, take overwatch and cover that area
Legolas says: I'm covering that area
Legolas' player: Puts down an overwatch marker to show where he's covering and he gets to shoot anyone trying to come through rather than lining up one shot.
Legolas' player says: Ultra overwatch area.

Legolas uses ultra overwatch rather than basic overwatch because he's such an expert with his bow. Someone armed with only a crossbow could set overwatch as a held action, but they would only ever get to shoot one orc rather than do ridiculous high-speed elf archery

Aragorn thinks: We need to prevent anyone crossing that 10' wide bridge
Mechanics say: fighters have a zone of control around them to prevent people doing a conga-line past
Aragorn thinks: Boromir's zone of control means he can guard the whole bridge
Aragorn says: Boromir. Onto that bridge. Guard it all.
Boromir's zone of control means that the orcs fight him rather than rush past to get the hobbits.

Most of these mechanics are trying to codify what veterans would try and do that's beyond just walking up to someone and hitting them.

 

[DND_Reborn]

@6ENow! equipment can work that way in fate but it's silly to think that style of mere fluff would work well for d&d or that the ludicrously powerful aspects tied to it in fate could be bolted onto d&d while still being playable or looking like d&d

I have no idea what you are talking about here or what it has to do with my recent post. Sorry.

As I am talking about proficiency alone being the baseline (not ability scores) and that magic items and feats should be assumed in the design of the game as the vast majority of groups use both.

 

[el-remmen]

if by "different" you mean "supplied by a different class so martials should just shut up, charge in, & faeroll badguys till someone dies" sure, but that's hardly the point...

Being 100% earnest when I say that I don't know what this means.

 

[el-remmen]

On the other hand this isn't contradictory.

Yep. But none of the jargon is necessary to know to be a good tactician - just like the narrative description is technically not necessary to imagine the story.

 

[tetrasodium]

I have no idea what you are talking about here or what it has to do with my recent post. Sorry.

As I am talking about proficiency alone being the baseline (not ability scores) and that magic items and feats should be assumed in the design of the game as the vast majority of groups use both.

fate is opposed skill rolls with the attacker's overflow hitting the target's stress tack , possibly with a stunt that adds +1 or +2. I misunderstood & thought you were suggesting magic items be represented by the proficiency bonus rather than magic items having their own bonuses and such or something. The rest is fate specific stuff that makes that dead simple not really scaling thing not suck but aspects are not a bite sized topic.

 

[Asisreo]

That really isn't an issue IMO. Even in AD&D as a DM I've always run the game as whatever magic items I rolled up were what the players discovered and I do the same in 5E. At level 4 I had a barbarian get a +3 greatsword. Did it make the PC more powerful? Certainly, but the player also became a target for every villain and warlord who wanted that sword!


THIS is the problem. IME and in every source I've seen online, 90%+ of tables use feats and even more use magic items!

Designing the game with the intent that such things aren't in play is naive in the extreme.

But that's the exact opposite of what they say. They say that the base assumption is that magic items are distributed throughout a campaign.

Also, magic items are indeed taken into account in the difficulty margin of a fight. Its why CR 1-4 creatures are assumed to have 2x the amount of HP if they have resistance to nonmagical BPS but CR 17+ creatures have no change in CR from BPS resistance. If the game assumed the adventurers never get magic items throughout their adventure, the CR of the monster would change exactly the same throughout the levels.


What I'm actually saying is that the lack of magic item "balance" is because the gifts given from magical items shouldn't be so powerful as to have completely swung the balance of an encounter from insanely difficult to suddenly a curbstomp. Remember, the party is hardly ever going to come out of tier 1 with more than uncommon items unless they're extremely lucky.

 

[tetrasodium]

But that's the exact opposite of what they say. They say that the base assumption is that magic items are distributed throughout a campaign.

Also, magic items are indeed taken into account in the difficulty margin of a fight. Its why CR 1-4 creatures are assumed to have 2x the amount of HP if they have resistance to nonmagical BPS but CR 17+ creatures have no change in CR from BPS resistance. If the game assumed the adventurers never get magic items throughout their adventure, the CR of the monster would change exactly the same throughout the levels.


What I'm actually saying is that the lack of magic item "balance" is because the gifts given from magical items shouldn't be so powerful as to have completely swung the balance of an encounter from insanely difficult to suddenly a curbstomp. Remember, the party is hardly ever going to come out of tier 1 with more than uncommon items unless they're extremely lucky.

saying that in a book published years after 5e was released doesn't change the fact that the math does not support that claim & certainly does not support it to the extent that it was the case in past editions. The math does not support it because 5e was designed to make magic items and feats so "optional" that the math does not consider them resulting in bounded accuracy melting down when you start using them because it's rying to model a spherical cow .