Has D&D jumped the shark?

[Jürgen Hubert]

I recently finished reading Races of Eberron. All in all, I liked it, though the endless rules bits bored me to tears. However, two things among the rules parts really annoyed me:

- Racial Substitution Levels: I always liked about the core classes that they were relatively generic. That you now effectively have "variant racial core classes" rubs me in a very wrong way. Could we please limit the "special powers" to feats or prestige classes?

- Mindset spells: These are spells that give characters special boni to skill checks and other things as long as they have prepared them, but not cast them. Do we really need yet another way of buffing characters? I personally think that running D&D characters involves far too much math already (not difficult math, but there is a lot of it...) - and introducing things like this just makes it worse.

I've got the suspicion that these rules existed even before Races of Eberron, in one of those numerous rules books that I refuse to buy - and as far as I can see, the main thing they accomplish is adding yet another layer of complexity to D&D. So I think that at some point in the recent past, at least the rules of D&D have jumped the shark.

Do you agree or disagree with this? And if you agree, when exactly do you think that D&D has jumped the shark?

 

[amethal]

Racial substitution levels were introduced in Races of Stone.

So long as they are balanced, (and to my mind the Dwarf Fighter gets too many bonuses, but others may disagree) then they are simply offering ways of further "customising" your character.

I'm sure your dwarf fighter will be completely different to my human fighter (or my dwarf fighter, for that matter) purely because we will roleplay our characters differently. We don't need to rely on game mechanics to create unique characters. So if you think racial substitution levels are an unnecessary complication, then leave them out.

Personally, I like the way they reward "playing to type" - by giving Dwarf fighters the equivalent of weapon focus with axes it explains why they don't use greatswords like everyone else does.

They also give me an easy mechanic for tweaking humanoid warriors. I don't like the warrior skill list in the DMG, so I give my kobold warriors a "racial substitution level" so that things like profession (miner) are class skills, my goblin warriors get move silently as a class skill etc.

 

[Li Shenron]

- Racial Substitution Levels

- Mindset spells

Do you agree or disagree with this? And if you agree, when exactly do you think that D&D has jumped the shark?

The first example is something which I already really dislike, both because of the idea and the specific examples I've seen before.

The second example sounds another terrible idea. So yes I probably agree that WotC is tossing around too many poor ideas which water down the game and help rather the powerplayers.

However I don't know the meaning of "jumpind the shark" so I cannot say I agree with that

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

However I don't know the meaning of "jumpind the shark" so I cannot say I agree with that

You can find a lengthy explanation here. Basically, it means that something - a television series, an RPG line, or whatever - has passed its prime and declining in quality.

 

[MerricB]

[diaglo]D&D jumped the shark with Supplement I: Greyhawk[/diaglo]

I think that when the D&D designers are afraid to try new things then D&D really has jumped the shark.

It is probably worth nothing that Racial Substitution levels add nothing to the complexity of the game, but Mindset spells do.

Cheers!

 

[trancejeremy]

The trouble with the whole "jumping the shark" thing is that in retrospect, Happy Days wasn't that good a show to begin with, even though lots of people watched. Before or after Fonzie jumped that shark.

Though still better than Joanie Loves Chachi.

A better moment, though perhaps not as catchy a phrase, is when Michael Jackson went from a talented and beloved musical artist to a , well, sideshow. And that would have been at the premiere of that video on MTV, the one where the last 10 minutes were him groping himself and smash up a car with a crowbar. (Though it was also better than Joanie Loves Chachi)


Anyway, IMHO, if you don't like RPGs with a lot of rules to begin with, then D&D/d20 is probably not for you, even before they started adding more.

I mean, I don't think it's really shifted any in what it's trying to do, or gotten worn out. Classes were always meant to be tweaked to customize them. In 2E they were very generic, but 3.x took a different path, I though, more 1E in tone.


I do think the Mindset spells are just a dumb idea.

 

[Nighthawk]

I disagree, but then I am a believer in having multiple variant rules. I like such things that test the bundaries of the basic game rules.

My mindset is that it is good for a game system to have rules I dislike, like, and do not feel strongly about either way.

 

[DragonLancer]

Originally Posted by Jürgen Hubert
- Racial Substitution Levels

- Mindset spells

Do you agree or disagree with this? And if you agree, when exactly do you think that D&D has jumped the shark?

I'm not too bothered with RSL's but then I doubt I would use them in a game. If a player wanted them then I'd want a nice explanation why but I'd be open to the idea.

I've read Races of Eberron in preperation for playing in the campaign and I have to say that the idea of a spell that gives a bonus before you have even cast it is a bad one IMO.

Now I don't think D&D has jumped the shark, but I do wonder if the design team at WotC are not just throwing these things out to guage reaction and see how well or how badly they are recieved. After all if they don't try then they don't know what we want.

 

[Nighthawk]

Now I don't think D&D has jumped the shark, but I do wonder if the design team at WotC are not just throwing these things out to guage reaction and see how well or how badly they are recieved. After all if they don't try then they don't know what we want.

I agree. This is something they could be doing to find out if it is thought well of in their customer base. Which is cool, AFAIAC.

 

[Testament]

Personally, I like the way they reward "playing to type" - by giving Dwarf fighters the equivalent of weapon focus with axes it explains why they don't use greatswords like everyone else does.

Funny, that's the very reason I hate and despise them. That and the fact that most of them give you something for nothing (Dwarf Fighter & Sorc, anyone?). Its as though the designers have said "Oh no, people are taking advantage of the flexibility of the system to not play stereotypes! We better come up with a way to make them play stereotypes again. I know, we'll make the stereotypical characters FLAT OUT BETTER than the alternatives!" Races of Stone was by far the worst offender here, almost every scheme in it was insanely good IMHO. I agree that you shouldn't need variant rules to make characters different, play them that way!

Mindset spells are a very interesting idea, but the increased record keeping can be annoying. Thankfully, most of them give a fairly minor boost while in effect, and at any rate, my hat goes off to them for trying what I think is a very cool new idea (and is flavourfully implemented).

Otherwise, I agree with MerricB that the problem comes when they DON'T try new things, and I have the feeling that Nighthawk and DragonLancer are right on the money with the developers throwing out new ideas to see what we like.