D&D 4E Hasbro, Greyhawk, and 4E speculation

[Pramas]

Is that how much you made at WotC?

God no. I said 20K was average. WotC is the high end of the scale.

 

[Mercule]

God no. I said 20K was average. WotC is the high end of the scale.

So, you made $21K.

(Just kidding. I would never ask someone what their salary was.)

 

[buzzard]

Buzzard,

1) That's what I wrote, and that's why I provided my link. Thank you for posting your link. Why there is a discrepiancy in ~20k between average household income and average 4-person household, I don't know, unless the effect of individual households and large households changes the numbers by that much. In any event, the 4-person household seems to be at the peak of household income, for a variety of reasons, and so a bad example.

1b) By looking at the 2004 data, it is clear that income (in 2004 dollars) stagnated, even decreasing by a bit, from 2003 to 2004.

The numbers you posted showed median for males as ~$40k and median for females as ~$31K. For a 4 person family you sum them and get $71K. The 2003 data shows that 4 person family median was $65K. This seems perfectly reasonable. I still wonder why you would ask about my numbers.

2) I recognized that you had cited family statistics, that's why I got individual statistics, as I feel that they are more germane.

So in the interest of criticizing my analysis you decided to question my sources and compare apples to organges.

3) If you are offended by the last sentence, note that I specificall referneced drothgary's argument, not anything that you said.

I am not offended. I am annoyed that you would presume to correct something which isn't wrong, and actually doesn't even dissagree with your correction. Truthfully I'm probably more dumbfounded that you would waste your time questioning my numbers when a simple analysis would reveal that they agree with what you dug up.

4) I read everything that you wrote, I think that the data that I found was more germane to the case at hand. What is it that you disagree with?

OK, you read it. You certainly didn't comprehend it then.

Let me explain carefully then.

Drothgary cited $70K as a normal salary. Since I recalled that being around the median value for family income (generally assumed to be 2 wage earners) I decided to check on the facts and demonstrate this. I googled median family income. The census page I have cited came up. I then posted using those figures to demonstrate that he what he cited as being a 'normal' salary is about the same as that for a family of two wage earners. Hence you could say his assumed salary is double normal.

Then, for no apparent reason you look up numbers, which agree with mine. From this you decide to question my sources, and claim that my analysis was not germaine. In the interest of civility I will not respond further.

buzzard

 

[Monte At Home]

Well, put it this way. It's not that difficult for me to make $70K/yr as a programmer. My understanding is that it's extremely difficult for anyone in the game industry to make half of that.

Well, as others have said, when it comes to money, there's the game industry, and there's WotC. I'll agree that you're right that it's difficult, but certainly not at all impossible, to make 35K, or even 70K or more, in the game industry outside WotC.

But we were talking about WotC. I made considerably more than the half of 70K you mention as a writer there. And that's not counting their ridiculously good bonus plan (particularly during the Pokemon years), the stock options, and the general benefits. It's a very good place to work from a compensation point of view.

And of course, there are positions there that are far better paid than the game designers.

 

[Krypter]

So as someone who once contemplated being an RPG writer what are the salaries at WotC like? I know from the posts I've read that writers for small rpg companies don't make a lot of money. Many of them complain about that, and the little work that I've done confirms it. On the other hand, I've read stories by Peter Adkison and Kevin Siembieda in which they described how everyone down to the mail clerk was rolling in money (Kevin from Rifts and Peter during WotC's Golden Age of Magic). So is this a feast-or-famine salary industry? I hate to be so crass, but part of my work involves median/mean income and low-income cutoff analysis, so I'm curious as to the profile of my favorite hobby industry.

Are you guys clipping coupons or driving around in BMWs?

If you don't want to give a specific number, how about a ballpark figure? 20-40k, 40-60k, etc. Once again, apologies if I offend anyone; I'm just very curious and I don't know any game designers to ask them in private.

FYI, the variances between household and family income are indeed because the former has a variable number of members (grandparents? foster parents? singles?) while the latter is usually precisely defined (eg: 2 adults+2 children). Keep in mind that state cost of living varies and most of these numbers are not adjusted for purchasing power parity, so I would use national figures. A $100,000 salary in San Fran is practically borderline poverty!


Oh, darn, so off topic yet so interesting. On-topic: I like Greyhawk and I don't think D&D will be sold any time soon. Hasbro would have to be in trouble or under completely new management for that to happen.

 

[Belen]

So why did we get on the salary tangent? It is considered rude in a lot of place to ask what people make.

 

[Krypter]

I'm not asking individuals what their salaries are, I'm only trying to get a ballpark figure for what professionals in the industry as a whole (or maybe at WotC) are making. That's certainly not rude. The Bureau of Labor Statistics carries this kind of data for various occupations. Just keep in mind the difference between 'mean' and 'median'.

Here's a sample for Art/Design/Entertainment occupations:

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_27Ar.htm

 

[TwistedBishop]

So why did we get on the salary tangent? It is considered rude in a lot of place to ask what people make.

It's not a tangent, it's part of Charles Ryan's statement that, the reason we keep having these doom and gloom threads, is due to a poor self-image of the industry by gamers.

From there, we heard claims that the bad image is justified, that the industry isn't very healthy, considering how difficult it is to make a decent wage at it professionally even at the highest level (WotC).

So, naturally, the question becomes how much do people at WotC make? There are only so many sources, on this board, who can answer that question. I'd rather it just comes out than we continue going round and round with statistics, hyperbole, and guesswork.

 

[Belen]

So, naturally, the question becomes how much do people at WotC make? There are only so many sources, on this board, who can answer that question. I'd rather it just comes out than we continue going round and round with statistics, hyperbole, and guesswork.

The problem here is that more "professionals" serve the industry than the industry can sustain. There are a lot of game designers who work in the industry because they are passionate about their hobby and love to write. Thus, you cannot count these people, although they tend to get added to the mix when you discuss the low end of salaries.

Not to mention that the loads of crap produced by people who are not serious tends to tarnish the industry and influence negative sales.

 

[qstor]

And of course, there are positions there that are far better paid than the game designers.

Like a Pokemon play tester?

Certainly not a Legal Services lawyer.

Mike
- Legal Services lawyer