Hasted Zombies?

[Altalazar]

Ok, at least for myself, let me get the facts of the question straight:

1. Haste lets you get an extra attack when you take a full action.
2. Slow only lets you take a partial action.
3. Zombies only get to take a partial action because they are slow (NB: NOT slowed!)
4. Haste cancels Slow.

My conclusions:

Does Haste let you take a full action during the surprise round? (when you are limited to a partial action): No.

Does Haste let zombies take a full action during any round (when they are limited to a partial action): No.

IF Hasted zombies would have been speeded up to 'normal' speed by the Haste spell, the spell descriptions should have included something along the lines of:
'When, due to circumstances, you are reduced to taking only a partial action, Haste lets you take a full action'.

Since that would ALSO mean you can take a full action during the surprise round, I wonder if that would be reasonable....

Anyway, any word from the Sage?

Herzog

Your reasoning is fine, until you hit the surprise round, because that really isn't about being slow. For instance, how many actions does a slowed creature get in the surprise round?

 

[bestone]

3. Zombies only get to take a partial action because they are slow (NB: NOT slowed!)
4. Haste cancels Slow.

i dunno, i think your kinda disproving your own point there

Why are zombies taking partial actions yes, because they are SLOW!

What does haste do? Speed things up!

what your doing is saying, yes zombies have this penalty, cause they are infact, slow, and Haste, a spell which, in its essence, speeds things up, doesnt work on them, because "the rules dont say so"

while you are right, in that the rules dont specefically state so, i can also see the other side of the coin, you can logic it out like i said above, they are the way they are cause they are slow, and the spell, in essence speeds them up

I think this is a matter of opinion really (making arguing pointless), and i think a dm would be in his right to choose either way, and if it really mattered to a player, im sure he could make a good case before the dm of the situation

 

[bestone]

IF Hasted zombies would have been speeded up to 'normal' speed by the Haste spell, the spell descriptions should have included something along the lines of:
'When, due to circumstances, you are reduced to taking only a partial action, Haste lets you take a full action'.

This statement also bugs me, you cannot reasonably expect wizards to be able to account for every situation possible for any spell or ability they make, that would be absurd. Sometimes unexpected things are going to pop up, and its up to a judgement call by the players (and ultimately the dm) to decide how things work.

Im sure when they wrote haste, and zombies, they probably didnt have the other in mind, but really, what other situations leave you with a partial action?

In your case of the "when due to circumstances" bit, does that mean when your staggered hast should fix you? no, it doesnt

If you look at the effects of haste, and slow, and again look at the fact zombies are slowed, again, its up to interpretation, but i dont see how you could see it unreasonable, or argue with the fact, that someone is saying they are affected by slowness, that works much like the spell, and a spell that counters that slowness couldnt possibly work just because it didnt specifically state for this situation that it did work.......

Do you think it un-balancing/game ruining to allow haste to funcion on a zombie? i doubt it

If it were me, i'd rule, while hasted, a zombies slowness penalty is negated for the duration of the haste spell, gaining no further benefits associated with the spell

 

[Hypersmurf]

For instance, how many actions does a slowed creature get in the surprise round?

A standard or move action.

For two different reasons.

Two inches of ice will absorb how much damage? All of it? Some of it? None of it? The rules are silent on this.

The ice doesn't 'absorb' damage. If my fireball does 15 damage and there are three creatures in the area, it doesn't parcel out the fifteen damage equally so they each take 5; it deals the same damage to all of them.

If the ice is destroyed so the fireball can continue past the intervening obstacle, the character is subject to 15 damage. If the ice is not destroyed, the character is not subject to damage since he has total cover.

If the ice is completely destroyed, the character is unrestrained, and can make a Reflex save. If the ice is of variable thickness and only some of it is melted, the character does not benefit from Cover because Fireball is a Spread, but he may be unable to make a Reflex save, because "As with a Reflex save for any creature, a character must have room to move in order to use Evasion." If enough ice remains to deny the character 'room to move', he cannot make a Reflex save.

And while a DM can make ad-hoc rulings for whatever situations he chooses, there's no ambiguity about the effect of the Haste spell on a zombie to make it necessary for him to do so. You can run the Haste spell as written without the game grinding to a halt as the logic engine goes into fits, because it is possible to follow the exact wording with no contradictions occurring.

-Hyp.

 

[bestone]

And while a DM can make ad-hoc rulings for whatever situations he chooses, there's no ambiguity about the effect of the Haste spell on a zombie to make it necessary for him to do so. You can run the Haste spell as written without the game grinding to a halt as the logic engine goes into fits, because it is possible to follow the exact wording with no contradictions occurring.

While i agree with you there hypersmurf, theres no arguing that the spell, does indeed, do what the spell says. I simply say, in this situation, its well within the realm of reason to allow such a thing. I as a dm, wouldnt think twice to allow haste to supress a zombies slow for the duration. And i doubt that most dm's would refuse me to do so as a player, if i give a good and reasonable argument as to why it should be allowed.

But again, no, you are right, to the rules, it is what it is

 

[SlagMortar]

In your case of the "when due to circumstances" bit, does that mean when your staggered hast should fix you? no, it doesnt

If you look at the effects of haste, and slow, and again look at the fact zombies are slowed, again, its up to interpretation, but i dont see how you could see it unreasonable, or argue with the fact, that someone is saying they are affected by slowness

Bringing up the staggered condition is a good reason to fall back on what the rules actually say. You could argue that zombies are the way they are because they are slowed and so haste should remove the penalty. I could argue that zombies are the way they are because they are staggered and so haste should not remove the penalty. The rules say zombies suffer from a condition more similar to being staggered than being slowed precisely because haste does not remove the condition.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Bringing up the staggered condition is a good reason to fall back on what the rules actually say. You could argue that zombies are the way they are because they are slowed and so haste should remove the penalty. I could argue that zombies are the way they are because they are staggered and so haste should not remove the penalty. The rules say zombies suffer from a condition more similar to being staggered than being slowed precisely because haste does not remove the condition.

Also, Slow imposes a half-speed penalty (so a Slowed creature can move a quarter as far as normal - non-Slowed human takes two move actions for 60 feet, Slowed human takes one move action for 15 feet), which neither zombies nor staggered creatures suffer.

-Hyp.

 

[Herzog]

Also, Slow imposes a half-speed penalty

mmm. missed that.

I would also completely miss that during play. So, you cast 'Slow', which means that you are reduced to taking either a single move or a single standard action. AND you get to move half speed? reducing you, effectively, when you stick to moving, to a quarter of your normal speed? That's just silly. But then again, it's the RAW.

In regard to replies I got on my earlier post:

I agree. We can not expect wotc to have taken into account every possible combination of the rules. That's why we have the errata.

I was just saying that to clarify the rules, we would end up with a statement like the one I made, and that the implications of that statement might in turn be applicable to other situations, where we would NOT, logically, expect 'haste' to counteract the situation where characters are reduced to taking a single action.

Also, if this situation would crop up in one of my campaigns, I would probably rule that 'Haste' returns zombies to the 'normal' situation, treating their 'slowed' state as something akin to being 'slowed'. The point is, I would like to see an official ruling about it, because currently, by the RAW, that's not how it works.

Herzog

 

[Herzog]

Checking the description of slow:

A slowed creature moves at half its normal speed (round down to the next 5-foot increment), which affects the creature’s jumping distance as normal for decreased speed.

I think this actually refers to the reducing of speed caused by having to take only a single move action, and its effect on jump distances. NOT a further decrease in speed!

Herzog

 

[Hypersmurf]

I think this actually refers to the reducing of speed caused by having to take only a single move action, and its effect on jump distances. NOT a further decrease in speed!

If it simply meant "Only take a single move action", you would never have to "round down", since a single move action would allow you to move your normal speed... you don't need to round if you aren't dividing anything!

I think it's clear that as well as being restricted to a single action, you also take your current land speed and divide it by two to determine how far you can move with that single action.

-Hyp.