Hasted Zombies?

[bestone]

"The rules don't cater for the Notch Theory of Creature Speed" and "The rules are ambiguous" aren't logically equivalent, though.

Zombies are creatures, and the effects of Haste on creatures are unambiguously stated.

-Hyp.

Hyp is correct, its hard to argue otherwise. It clearly states what haste does. Raw he's correct. whether or not it SHOULD work that way is whats up for debate.


There are no rules for spells supressing natural abilities, so your just gonna have to house rule what works for you.

 

[javcs]

That's your opinion, and you are welcome to it. But that doesn't change the fact that the rules are ambiguous on this particular point.

Hyp was not stating an opinion.
The rules do say what happens when you cast haste on a zombie (zombies are creatures). The rules are very clear what happens when you cast haste on a zombie (zombies are creatures). The 'official answer from WotC' on what happens when you cast haste on a zombie is in the PHB and MM, the MM tells us that zombies are creatures and the PHB tells us what happens when we cast haste on a creature.
Therefore, unless you are attempting to tell us that the MM is wrong is telling us that zombies are creatures and can back that up, and since the PHB clearly tells us what happens when we cast haste on a creature, we clearly know what happens when we cast haste on a zombie.

bestone - the Single Actions Only quality of zombies isn't even supernatural, it's extraordinary.

 

[Altalazar]

Hyp is correct, its hard to argue otherwise. It clearly states what haste does. Raw he's correct. whether or not it SHOULD work that way is whats up for debate.


There are no rules for spells supressing natural abilities, so your just gonna have to house rule what works for you.

There's a hole in the RAW, thus, the question to wizards. The spell does not say how it affects a creature who is normally reduced to only a single action. The rules say that single action penalty, in some cases, is cancelled by a haste (when it is from a slow). They say nothing about other situations also causing single actions. That's the ambiguity. Mindlessly applying the mechanic to a situation that is not specifically mentioned in the spell description that does not address that point does not make it a RAW answer.

If it were a RAW answer, the spell would say: When Haste is cast on Zombies or other creatures who naturally can do only a single action in a round, it does X. The rules do not say that, they are silent on that point.

 

[bestone]

There's a hole in the RAW, thus, the question to wizards. The spell does not say how it affects a creature who is normally reduced to only a single action. The rules say that single action penalty, in some cases, is cancelled by a haste (when it is from a slow). They say nothing about other situations also causing single actions. That's the ambiguity. Mindlessly applying the mechanic to a situation that is not specifically mentioned in the spell description that does not address that point does not make it a RAW answer.

If it were a RAW answer, the spell would say: When Haste is cast on Zombies or other creatures who naturally can do only a single action in a round, it does X. The rules do not say that, they are silent on that point.

No it doesnt, but it states how it affects creatures. But are you telling me now that every spell that doesnt specifically state how it works on any one particular thing leaves a hole in raw? no. It states quite clearly how it works on creatures, zombies are creatures, thats how it works on them.

You are simply assuming that the spell would work differently for zombies or creatures affected by a similar affliction, you have no proof/founding to back this up.

Now dont get me wrong, i wholeheartedly agree with you that haste SHOULD supress thier slowness, thats how i run it, but it, again, is not raw.

 

[The_Ditto]

It's reasons like this I've always been curious if a better way of dealing with Haste would have been to change it from granting a "partial action"(3E) to grating a "Move Action"(3.5E)

If it granted a move action ... (and no speed increase).

A zombie would have a Standard or move action (normal) plus a hasted Move action.
It could combine it's Standard + (Hasted) Move for a Full round ...

A normal character would end up with a Standard + 2 Move actions.
I've always tried to think of the possibly abuses of that ... but didn't really come up with much ... (maybe with psionics due to more Move action powers ala Augment ... but not sure how many Move action spells are out there now ...)

.. but even with that, I'm not sure that would cause any real problems ...

.. It would certainly solve the "problem" with Zombies + Haste (if you see it as a problem, that is ..)

 

[Elethiomel]

Hasted ghostformed mage moves out of wall. Hasted ghostformed mage casts spell. Hasted ghostformed mage moves into wall and far away for his next appearance.

And he didn't even have to spend a feat on it.

 

[The_Ditto]

Hasted ghostformed mage moves out of wall. Hasted ghostformed mage casts spell. Hasted ghostformed mage moves into wall and far away for his next appearance.

And he didn't even have to spend a feat on it.

hmmmm .... :\
I guess that goes for fighter/types too ... spring attack without the feat?
hmmmm .... :\

 

[DreadArchon]

There's a hole in the RAW... The spell does not say how it affects a creature who is normally reduced to only a single action.

No there's not and yes it does.

...nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can’t use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round...

Zombies get one action. Haste does not grant extra actions, period. This is very explicit. There is no opinion involved.

A zombie simply does not have the reflexes to line up an attack while moving, hasted or no. It has to stop and "think" about it. Speed is irrelevant--a sufficiently large zombie can have multiple attacks per round and 50+ speed before haste, but that still doesn't let it move and attack.

If you want speedy zombies, apply the "Fast" zombie upgrade from Libris Mortis or convince your DM to do so, but Haste does not make zombies able to take extra actions per round.

 

[Herzog]

A zombie simply does not have the reflexes to line up an attack while moving, hasted or no.

That is not true. A zombie can both move and attack, but to do so requires it to charge it's opponent.

And, for the record, I still think Haste does not allow Zombies to move and attack normally according to the RAW, although I think it SHOULD.
I am therefore still waiting on a response by the Sage, and hope it makes it into the errata somehow....

Herzog

 

[Altalazar]

No there's not and yes it does.


Zombies get one action. Haste does not grant extra actions, period. This is very explicit. There is no opinion involved.

A zombie simply does not have the reflexes to line up an attack while moving, hasted or no. It has to stop and "think" about it. Speed is irrelevant--a sufficiently large zombie can have multiple attacks per round and 50+ speed before haste, but that still doesn't let it move and attack.

If you want speedy zombies, apply the "Fast" zombie upgrade from Libris Mortis or convince your DM to do so, but Haste does not make zombies able to take extra actions per round.

Where and what is the "Fast" zombie upgrade in Libris Mortis? I don't recall seeing it, but then I did not read it cover to cover.