Have These Basic Questions been answered yet?

[Dragonblade]

Like I said, at high level that system will break. The actual die used for hit dice is built for averages, not maxes. A d12 HD averages 6.5, which is not that far off of 2.5 for a Wizard, a 4 point difference. But when maxed, it's 12 vs. 4, it's an 8 point difference (double the average), which IS that far off. Done over many levels, it makes a big difference.

RAW provides a good system for averaging hit points. I don't see why you would go for max, knowing in advance the system isn't predicated on that sort of assumption. Particularly in a thread where you are criticizing people who use rolled hit points and implying your method is more the norm, when apparently it wasn't even the norm for your own games!

Even at high level it wouldn't be a problem. I have played in and DMed epic games (up to 40th level) before where we experimented with similar rules. It worked fine. Whether you have 200 hp or 400 hp, a couple of Winter Wights will still kick the snot out of you. It will just take them a couple of extra rounds.

I'm not necessarily criticizing people who use rolled hp, I'm just surprised that people still play by the RAW because in my opinion, its broken, unfair and unfun. A fighter who rolls a 1 for hp over multiple levels no longer has the hp to function as a fighter. Especially at higher levels where high damage attacks are more common.

And DMs who don't allow that total to be adjusted? Sorry, but thats bad DMing. Period. The game itself should help prevent such bad DMing by not allowing for the possibility of subpar hp. Like I said before, randomness in combat is fine. Randomness in characters stats and hp is not. A fighter of the same level should NEVER have less hp than the wizard. Should never have even the chance of having less hp, IMO.

I run a tough game. I have TPKed the party before. Despite the PCs having max HP, 84 point buy stats and in some cases despite the fact that they also played gestalt characters! But when they died it was always due to foolish tactics or poor planning. They never died because their characters weren't up to the challenge. So my game may seem "munchkin" to some people. But its as gritty as anyone's game.

The key though is my players feel like they are real epic heroes. They feel like they have options they wouldn't have in another game with a stricter DM. But the game is still tough and challenging. My players love it. I have never ever had a player whine that his character was too weak. Likewise, no player has ever whined that the adventure was too hard when they died. I play D&D to have fun, but most importantly I make sure my players have fun too.

 

[Dausuul]

How did you calculate this? I remember that the actual value of 4d6-drop-lowest is just over 30 points. However, that takes into account the rules for "hopeless characters", so a large chunk of the lower part of the distribution is eliminated before the average is taken. I think that if you did that, you'd see an increase in point buy values that diminished as the number of dice increased.

Hmm, that's true. I didn't take hopeless characters into account. Hmm... that'll take some thought.

 

[KarinsDad]

Like I said, at high level that system will break. The actual die used for hit dice is built for averages, not maxes. A d12 HD averages 6.5, which is not that far off of 2.5 for a Wizard, a 4 point difference. But when maxed, it's 12 vs. 4, it's an 8 point difference (double the average), which IS that far off. Done over many levels, it makes a big difference.

We use best of two rolls. So, a player of a Cleric rolls 2D8s and takes the better roll.

This results in averages of:

D4: 3.125
D6: 4.47
D8: 5.8125
D10: 7.15
D12: 8.49

The difference jumps from 4 to 5.3+ between the D4s and D12s, but one never really runs into the problem of bad dice rolls. Sure, once in a blue moon someone rolls two ones on the dice and only gets one hit point for that level, but that easily gets outweighed by the number of times that the player rolls above single die average.

Plus, this gives the PCs a bit of an edge and minimizes TPKs a bit. It doesn't reduce the amount of healing needed for an adventure or anything, it just slightly reduces the number of times PCs go dead or unconscious. It also gives PC fighter types a bit more of an edge (which at high level where PC spell casters rule, that's ok).

 

[KarinsDad]

I run a tough game. I have TPKed the party before. Despite the PCs having max HP, 84 point buy stats and in some cases despite the fact that they also played gestalt characters! But when they died it was always due to foolish tactics or poor planning. They never died because their characters weren't up to the challenge.

Nonsense. It indicates that the DM always creates a balanced encounter and it is always the players' fault that a PC death occurs. According to this, it's never the synergy of the developing situation (which creatures target which PCs, which abilities are used, what has happened previous to the encounter, etc.) and dice rolls in your game.

I play the Bulls**t card.

 

[Dragonblade]

Nonsense. It indicates that the DM always creates a balanced encounter and it is always the players' fault that a PC death occurs. According to this, it's never the synergy of the developing situation (which creatures target which PCs, which abilities are used, what has happened previous to the encounter, etc.) and dice rolls in your game.

I play the Bulls**t card.

I very carefully try to make sure they have the potential to be victorious in every encounter. Do I sometimes misjudge something? Sure. I'm only human after all. And a streak of bad dice rolls can turn even what should be a weak encounter into a TPK. But generally speaking, if they die, its *usually* due to poor planning and tactics.

I'll concede your point.

 

[catsclaw227]

Either way, max hp was just too cheesy for us, so we went with rolling, but any roll below half becomes whatever number is just below half. (with 1d10 anything below 6 becomes a 5, with 1d8, anything below 5 becomes a 4, etc). We switched to that around 10 years ago, and have all been happy with it since. (it was one of my few stints as player that prompted me to change the rules, after having a level 5 paladin with 8 hps.)

We do 32 pts buy for stats, no need for us to play superhumans, but a decent stat or two is a must.

We do 32 point buy, Max HP at first level, then roll two HP dice and take the highest, this way if you roll 2d10 for a fighter, the odds of getting a 7+ are 64%, and a 5+ is 84%. It makes for better averages.

 

[Lanefan]

Hm. To me, this reasoning calls for random xp - not random hp.

Why?

Randomness in generation produces what the character *is*. ExP are a specific reward to the character for what the character *does* in the game, regardless of what it is. There's a big difference.

Lanefan

 

[Dausuul]

Why?

Randomness in generation produces what the character *is*. ExP are a specific reward to the character for what the character *does* in the game, regardless of what it is. There's a big difference.

Lanefan

But hit points are granted as the result of earning XP. If those are random, why aren't all the other XP-related gains random as well?

The only hit points that don't come from XP are those that you start with at first level... which, ironically enough, are non-random.

 

[EATherrian]

Neither do I see the fun in having 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 and 6.

Different views, different opinions. I'm glad that point-buy will rather be the standart than random rolls. But for those who still prefer those antiquitated ways, they should rejoice that 4th edition also has the rules for determining your abilities randomly with dices as an optional thing.

I also frankly hope that random HPs are gone, and after what I read, it's going to be like that too, which is very very good.

Swap that first 14 for a 13 and I've played this. With the 6 in CON. I lasted the whole campaign too and had a blast.

 

[Falling Icicle]

In my group we take half the HD and add 1 (max at 1st level, of course). So a wizard, with d4, gets 3 hp/level, while a barbarian, with d12, gets 7. We use 32 point buy for ability score generation.