Have you tried out spell points?

[SSquirrel]

Heh this is why I like my much simpler version. Look at the spell charts and teh character gets 1 SP for each zero level spell known and 1SP/spel llevel of all teh opther spells. So if he can cast 3/3/2/1 he would have 3+3+2+1=9SP. Bonus spells from intelligence would add points the same way. No scaling of damage needed and 0 level spells can be cast freely. I always thought 0 level spells should be something anyone can cast as much as they want. Like floating something over to you while you're in the lab.

Only modifier needed for that idea is that 0 lvl healing can only be used on the same target up to 3 times per day. Thiis to keep them from just using the free spells for ALL healing needs. Could easily be explained as magical feedback that doesn't allow more of that type of magic to work.

disclaimer:haven't run a D&D group in ages so this isn't playtested at all heh.

Hagen

 

[mercucio]

But perhaps you can comment on how wizards and sorcerers compare to each other under the spell point system...or does using the fatigue/exhaustion rules throw a wrench into that comparison?

First off, I love the effect of exhaustion on spellcasters...now spellcasting has consequences. It gives magic a grittier cast and I like that =).

The primary difference between sorcerers and wizards is pretty simple: endurance. Wizards burn through spell points faster than sorcerers. I will qualify that sorcerers get 40 more sp than wizards do (over twenty levels). Another difference is that sorcerers get an extra damage die for free when casting 2nd level and higher spells since their minimum caster level is 1 higher than a wizard.

Other Points of Consideration:
* Extra Spell: see Spell Mastery below.
* Spell Mastery: With the change in the way spells are prepared the current version of the Extra Spell and Spell Mastery feats need to be updated and consolidated. Remove both feats and replace them with the following:

SPELL MASTERY
Prerequiste: Ability to cast 2nd level spells, 6 ranks Spellcraft

Benefit: Select a number of spells from your class list equal to your spellcasting attribute modifier -1 (minimum one). You may select any spell you are capable of casting, but may not select more than one spell of the same level with a single use of this feat.

Each spell you select with this feat is always considered prepared, just like bonus spells gained from school specialization.

Special: You may select this feat multiple times. Each time you select this feat you may select an additional number of spells from your class list equal to your spellcasting attribute modifier -1 (minimum one).

* With the use of spell points the distinction between between sorcerer and wizard nearly vanishes. Sorcerers require something in compensation for this (note that the additional 20 sp is a start, but not nearly enough). We gave sorcerers the choice of either 1d6 hd per level or 4 skill points per level and 4 bonus skills. Selection went about 50/50.

 

[Khaalis]

EDIT: Checked my book - Sorcs get 249 points at level 20, compared to 343 for the Psion. Psions take the lead starting at 2nd level, and it just keeps getting wider. Oddly, though, Sorcs have only 17 more spell points than Wizards at 20th level. Huh?

There are a lot of issues to look at when it comes to the point acquisition. For example, only Psions are restricted by the following:
“Recent Manifesting Limit/Rest Interruptions: If a psionic character has manifested powers recently, the drain on his resources reduces his capacity to regain power points. When he regains power points for the coming day, all power points he has used within the last 8 hours count against his daily limit.
Peaceful Environment: To regain power points, a psionic character must have enough peace, quiet, and comfort to allow for proper concentration. The psionic character’s surroundings need not be luxurious, but they must be free from overt distractions, such as combat raging nearby or other loud noises. Exposure to inclement weather prevents the necessary concentration, as does any injury or failed saving throw the character might incur while concentrating on regaining power points.”

The other issue is that the Spell Point system is designed with a “Flat Rate” spending structure. All spells in a given level cost the same amount of spell points and even the scaling and metamagic are also set at a “Flat rate”. Scaling also only effects damage dice spells, not utility spells. This is not so for Psionics. Powers within the same level have different scaling costs. For example at 1st level bolt costs 1 PP + 3 PP per additional +1 enhancement bonus. Yet conceal thoughts requires only 1 PP and demoralize is a base of 1 PP with a 2 PP scaling effect. The scaling also effects more than just damage in psionics, also effecting range and DC’s, what kind of action to use the power, what size target can be effected, how many targets, etc. The psionic augmentations present many more options to spend additional PP per use of a power than spells do, which is the primary reason for the discrepancy between Caster and Psionic points.

Now, as to Wizard and Sorcerer only being 17 points difference at 20th… I don’t understand this either. Sorcerers normally gain 2 more spells per spell level than a Wizard per day. Yet at 20th level with SP’s the Sorcerer only gains effectively 1 extra 9th level spell over a Wizard.

The only thing I can think is that they assumed Wizards would be using more metamagic than Sorcerers and paying the adjusted spell level costs (thus lowering the number of spells they can cast per day). I also think the Spell Points were meant to give an “average” number of spells per day, to be roughly equivalent to the “average” number of psionic powers used per day.

Also, looking at the spell pool, it is not sufficient to even cast a comparable number of spells per day as a slot caster. For example:
* A Wizard at 20th level with a 19 INT gains 248 Spell Points. To cast 4 spells of each spell level 1-9 would cost 324 Spell Points.
* A Sorcerer at 20th level with a 19 CHA gains 265 Spell Points. To cast 6 spells of each spell level 1-9 would cost 486 Spell Points.

* The average spell cost (per spell) is 9 SP. For wizards that’s an average of 27.5 spells per day. For sorcerers that’s 29.4 spells per day.
* The average psionic cost (per power) is the same 9 PP, but is assumed to have scaling at an average of roughly another 5 PP per power. So roughly 14 PP per power …
Thus a Psion/Wilder (with 19 stat) gets roughly an average of 27.4 powers per day.

My personal opinion would still fall to only making specific classes SP users, not all across the board. However, if you DID want ALL casters to SP users, I would give the sorcerer a base number equal to a Psion/Wilder’s PP. This would give them 359 points at 20th level or roughly an average of 40 spells per day, but still less than it would cost to cast 6 spells of each spell level (486 SP). Even less spells per day if they use scaling or metamagic effects.

Khaalis, what versatility advantage are you referring to? Compared to Sorcerers, Psions get augmentations for a variety of effects and free save DC scaling, more powers, and a bonus feat progression. Looks like versatility goes to the Psion on all counts.

By versatility I meant in spell versatility. Sorcerers can still do more with spells than a Psion because there are just more spells than psionic powers. The sorcerer also knows more spell-effects at 43 than a Psion’s known powers at 36. Granted the psionic scaling system is more flexible but it has to be to make the powers more functional.

But perhaps you can comment on how wizards and sorcerers compare to each other under the spell point system...or does using the fatigue/exhaustion rules throw a wrench into that comparison?

See my above rough comparison on Wizard and Sorcerer. Overall I think the Wizard gains the most from the system over a Sorcerer as I think the sorcerer gets the shaft (when doesn’t it?) in the spell point system.

As for the Vitalizing rules, I don’t think it changes the overall effectiveness of the point system, it simply makes it a bit more realistic. I also don’t see that sorcerers are really any more capable than a wizard for this system since the spell points are so closely tied together. IF you increased the sorcerer to a higher spell pool total, THEN they would have a small advantage in that they do not fatigue as easily.

JMHO. YMMV.

 

[Pbartender]

I've thought about using a spell point system similar to UA's. Only... I hate charts.

I was thinking of using a method of determining spell points in a manner similar to hit points. That is to say, give spellcasters 'magic dice' at each level. Instead of keeping different classes' spellpoints seperate, they'd stack (just like how rogue hit points stack with fighter hit points when you multiclass).

Spells simply cost twice their spell level to cast, 0-level spells count as a half level, and so cost 1 sp.

Bard: (1d6+Cha mod)/level
Druid: (1d8+Wis mod)/level
Cleric: (1d8+Wis mod)/level
Paladin: (1d4+Wis mod)/level
Ranger: (1d4+Wis mod)/level
Sorcerer: (1d12+Cha mod)/level
Wizard: (1d10+Int mod)/level

So, if you are a 1st level Wizard with a 16 Intelligence, you would have 13 spell points (if the DM lets the players maximize spell poitns at 1st level, same as hit points). That's six 1st level spell per day, and 1 cantrip. I you use the vitalizing rules, you'd be able to cast two 1st level spells, and four cantrips, before you starting taking any penalties... That's as good as any wizard using the standard rules.

At higher levels it gets a bit more complicated, due to ability-enhancing magic items, and spell point costs for certain spells, but...

At 20th level, the same Wizard would probably have an Intelligence of 20 or 21 without magic items. This would give him, on average, 214 spell points.

To cast all the prepared spells of a standard 20th level wizard using the spell point costs above would require 396 spell points per day. Of course, the spell point using Wizard could cast low-level spells all day long without even worrying about it.

The benefit is increased spell casting flexibility. One method to offset the problem is to allow spell points to regenerate more quickly... Perhaps a certain amount every hour, much like non-lethal damage?

 

[Plane Sailing]

The UA spell point system is awful for sorcerers, it means that there is no point in playing a sorcerer at all. If you have a game without sorcerers, then a quick look at the "heavy artilliary, psion vs arcane" thread might prove instructive since the same basic principle will apply - basically that in a spell point system it is possible to burn points more quickly and do more damage more quickly but pay for it in reduced staying power.

Cheers

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

EDIT: Checked my book - Sorcs get 249 points at level 20, compared to 343 for the Psion. Psions take the lead starting at 2nd level, and it just keeps getting wider. Oddly, though, Sorcs have only 17 more spell points than Wizards at 20th level. Huh?

Yeah, that's exactly why I was looking for people's experiences with the system...to see what the actual game effect of this is in practice. For all I know it could be carefully balanced...or it could be arbitrarily thrown in.