Having trouble threatening players

[SlyFlourish]

So I have a couple of gaming groups I've run 4e games for. Both groups were around level 7 to level 8. I'm a big fan of the BBEG solo mob and have used them in both.

I'm finding difficulty in truly threatening the players, however. It seems particularly easy to lock up a solo mob by hitting it with various full-round status effects that tie up its ability to do all of the funky moves it can do. Most solo mobs, on paper, still do not have enough actions in a round to make up for a party's full round of actions including action points.

When I've faced a party of level 8s with a level 8 solo mob, they walk right over it. Even solo mobs a couple of levels higher don't seem like much of a challenge. I think it mostly comes down to the amount of damage dished out. Dragon breath hardly knocks off a surge's worth of hitpoints.

What ways have you found of really challenging a party with a solo creature?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Solos have high defenses. Why are the players hitting so reliably?

 

[DeusExMachina]

A level 8 solo should be a normal encounter for a level 8 party. Not a challenging one, which is what most people want/expect from a solo fight. So a few levels higher would make it more interesting.

Secondly I found tactics to be important with solos. They have massive amounts of hitpoints, so I make them charge through lines, take OA's and go after those pesky guys that inflict status effects like the wizards and warlocks. Those guys don't have the defenses and hp to stand up to solos for very long and then suddenly the tables are turned...

Also try to use the terrain to your advantage if you think the encounters are too easy. Give the dragon a place to fly and perch atop from which he can use his breath weapon without being annoyed by fighters that are stuck on the ground...

Lastly, if all else fails, I cheat. A green dragon I was running was going to be stunned for a 3rd round in a row when I again rolled below the 5+ needed to save. I just decided it would make the battle into a lame hacking session and fudged the roll into the right number. After 2 rounds the player had gotten his worth from his power anyway and I was there to make the encounter fun, not super easy because of crappy die rolls...

 

[Engilbrand]

Use other things with the Solo. As has been said, a Solo is only a normal encounter. It's why some Solos have auras and stuff. They're meant to be used with other guys. If you're using Dragons, surround them with Kobolds. With the new Draconomicon, there are a few different types of Kobolds which are based around Dragon masters. It's a bad idea to just send one creature against a group.

 

[WalterKovacs]

So far I've been running the WOTC H series, just finished book 2. The solo's aren't as hard encounter wise. They've only had a couple, and in one case, the solo wasn't really solo ... there was a whole encounter area around him. That meant traps and terrain features and hazards that could seperate the party. The other aspect was the monsters ability to move and attack, and thus make some of the party have fewer options (they were often delaying or readying actions to get the monster back ... and the warlord was out of most of the fight because he got tied up).

The biggest problems the party went up against were actually elites, in part because the solos didn't tend to have the roles that some of the elites have. If the solos defense isn't hitable, the thing is going to be boring, at least with an elite, you have the rest of the monsters that you can kill off even if the elite is harder to hit.

There are two solutions. One is to go with the BBEG as an elite, so you can add other things to the fight to make it more challenging. Our first player death came in a fight with a BBEG as a higher level elite, with some other monsters... it actually included a couple other elites.

However, if you do want to stick with a solo, I'd suggest using the terrain to stack the odds a bit more in his favor. The dragon solo I had was able to target will and slide an opposing character each turn (only once) as a minor action ... there was also a deep pit. Creating "unsafe" places for the characters can translate into safe areas for the solo [or a way to hurt PCs that get to close to the solo], either way it gives the solo a bit more power. Dragons, who are often solos, also have an advantage when they can fly high, and keep some distance while they recharge their powers.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

If you really want to smash the party to bits, its best to throw an encounter of 3-4 levels higher at them. They can take it, even if its the 4th-5th battle of the day. The problem with Solos is that they don't scale as well as non-solos. A solo 3-4 levels higher is dangerously close to a TPK, and almost definitely will end up being a drawn out boring slugfest after a while.

If you want a BBEG fight with a solo, the best way to do it is to take a Solo of your party's level or one higher, and then add monsters until the encounter itself through the xp budget is 3-4 levels higher than the party's level. I've done this, and it works.

 

[firesnakearies]

Attach a laser beam to your solo monster's head.


Terrain which highly favors the monster and which is disadvantageous or dangerous for the PCs can make a fairly unimpressive fight into a scary brush with death.


Throw in like 10-20 lower-level minions with your solo, just to harry the heroes and make them waste actions.

 

[Jack99]

If you want a BBEG fight with a solo, the best way to do it is to take a Solo of your party's level or one higher, and then add monsters until the encounter itself through the xp budget is 3-4 levels higher than the party's level. I've done this, and it works.

This.

And if you want to have the BBEG alone, make the encounter mentioned above, split it up in two (one with the added monsters, one with the BBEG), add about 25-30% more monsters and have the players fight the guards/minions/whatnot, and as soon as they die (or at least before 5 minutes have passed) the BBEG makes an entrance.

Either that, or work on solo tactics . Can't help you there though, as I do not use them except for dragons and such.

 

[ExploderWizard]

I don't think its a good idea to threaten your players. If you enjoy gaming with them and would like to continue doing so then avoid threatening them.

The characters, on the other hand, need to be threatened on a regular basis. The problem with solo monsters in any edition is that the PC's can gang up, and concentrate thier resources without worrying about thier backsides. If they get to do this on a regular basis than its the DM's fault.

The characters simply need something else to worry about besides downing the solo monster to split thier attention. It doesn't have to simply be the addition of extra bad guys either. If there is a threat that requires more than one character to deal with during an encounter, then the solo becomes more dangerous without boosting up the stats.

The environment is a good place to start. Suppose there is a mechanism thats been triggered in the area or in an ajoining area? If the mechanism completes its operation before being shut down, then things will be BAD. It should be set up to require multiple rounds of attention, preferably by more than one PC. Right after this is triggered, the solo shows up. If the PC's all gang up they might drop the solo but may still fail. The mechanism here doesn't need to do direct harm, its just there to require a little TLC during the encounter. Without the might of the entire group bearing down at once, the solo is a bit tougher.

The "mechanism" can be replaced with nearly any situation that requires diverting attention. The diversion should require attention over a number of rounds and not be solvable with a simple check or roll, and it has to be meaningful enough to be worth the attention. Its important that the characters taking care of the situation have a sense of urgency and drama to what they are doing. A custom skill challenge may fit the bill here. The main thing is to keep the dramatic tension level high for these players.

 

[MrMyth]

I've been pondering this a bit, since I'm running H3, Pyramid of Shadows, and have a group who are slightly ahead of the level curve, and thus plowing through most encounters.

Some spoilers for H2 and H3:

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In general, I've realized that I have no problems with them smoking a bunch of encounters, as long as they feel somewhat threatened in the 'boss encounters'. So I've generally been adding a bit to those to keep them challenging, usually making them one or two levels higher than the party, while letting them clean house on many other fights - which still drain resources, so make for a decent build-up to the big battles.

One specific concern of mine is that H3 has a fighter with a Dragon - an Adult White Dragon. Now, the group has had some hints they will fight it, and seem excited. It is meant to be a big encounter, I've bulked out its horde a bit to make it more rewarding... but as written, it would likely be a pushover. It is a level 9 solo, against a party that will be level 9 or 10 - at best, it would just be a standard challenge, and I'm looking for a little bit more.

It is especially on my mind because of our experience in H2, Thunderspire Labyrinth. In one of the rooms, the party performs a ritual to open a doorway. When they perform the ritual, however, they first have to survive a bunch of traps opening throughout the area and a Young Green Dragon showing up.

My group (as I was playing then) decided to find a spot safe from the traps where we could buff up and fight the dragon. Our cleric, meanwhile, stayed seperate to keep the dragon busy while we got ready. Just as the rest of us finally all gathered... we noticed the cleric had already more than bloodied the dragon on his own. We walked over to it, and took a round of attacks, and it died. Now, it wasn't meant to be a supreme threat - it was a solo 2 levels lower than the party - but it was still somewhat anticlimactic for a 'dragon fight'.

So I decided I wanted to make the Dragon fight in H3 a bit more intense. I didn't want to just level up the Dragon a bunch, because then it becomes annoying to PCs who have trouble hitting it. Instead, I'm adding in two extra elements. The first is a host of ice bats (element-swapped fire bats) and ice bat minions (which turn into icicles that impale the PCs, effectively ending their lives to become a status effect that deals ongoing cold damage). These are mainly just meant to be a distraction, and keep the party somewhat on their toes.

In addition, I added in an Eidolon (reflavored as a Rimefire Eidolon), since I've added in some background as the dragon having almost been revered as a god by various beings. An Eidolon is a very interesting combatant. It doesn't really interfere directly, but insteads moves into a defensive stance where it gives bonus damage to ally's melee attacks (thus making the melee brute White Dragon much more threatening), while attacking enemy's who kill its allies (like the bats). It is itself difficult to harm, since it gains significant resistance to damage and lashes out at those who attack it.

All in all, this will only ending up raising the level of the encounter by 1 (since some of this is being accounted for by the presence of more PCs). However, my main goal is to make it a more memorable encounter - filled with decisions as to whether they should clear out the bats, or deal with the Eidolon first, or simply pour everything into the Dragon to take it out as soon as possible.

(Other, less mechanical changes: I've made the Dragon Huge, just to make it more imposing on the field of battle, and provided the party with a bit of background on it, including a name - Rimetooth - and history, so they feel a bit more of a connection to it.)

I suspect, given the party's level, that they won't find it too dangerous a fight - they have several healers, and aren't likely to lose anyone in the battle. But I think they will feel much more threatened than they actually are, and that they will like they truly earned the victory when successful.
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