Heart Attack

[AnthonyJ]

What would be the best way to model a heart attack in 3.5? I have a NPC that will be having one in the near future. What spells might counter-act it?

For a major heart failure (heart actually stops), reduce the target to -1 hit points and up the difficulty of stopping the hit point loss (medicine check, DC 20 or 25, should work; ordinary healing spells probably won't). Assuming the target survives, permanent loss of Con; Restoration should eliminate that damage, though it won't eliminate whatever caused the heart attack in the first place.

 

[The Souljourner]

Is it really necessary to have rules for this? It's an NPC, right? He clutches his chest and drops to the ground... If you want him to die, he dies, if you don't, he doesn't. If you really want it to be random, flip a coin. Why do you need temporary constitution damage or fort saves or hitpoints to do this? What happened to DMs just making sh-t up?

-The Souljourner

 

[AnthonyJ]

Probably because he wants some idea of what the PCs can do to interfere. Having someone die when the PCs ought to be able to save him is pretty annoying for the players.

 

[clark411]

For people saying DC insane, I'd like to note that a lot more people survive a heart attack than say, getting injected with three gallons of Giant Spider Venom.

erm..

Ok but still, if we take a look at some of the fort saves for poisons that kill people, their saves (unless we have actual d20 modern stats for arsenic) probably don't break 18-25 range. I'd wager a similar damage save, and just assign a temporary primary damage / secondary permanent damage (Wis, Int, Con) for a failure by 5 or more, and temporary damage on both counts for standard failure.

If however, modern "nearly guaranteed death" poisons are in fact listed with DCs of Ridiculous and Insane, I take it back- go nuts. ^_^ I just figure if venerable commoners/experts can survive these things, they should be designed to be a minor-average threat for heroes.

As for countering it, if you have a Ray of Frostesque equivalent based on electricity, that might do the trick. A heal check should be required to even think more than "Oh no, invisible spirits are sucking away his life!" and the heal check should be able lessen the secondary damage.

 

[Deset Gled]

For people saying DC insane, I'd like to note that a lot more people walk away from a heart attack fine than say, getting injected with three gallons of Giant Spider Venom.

Of course, a lot of people who walk away form heart attacks do so with the help of CPR, medicine, doctors, and machines the go "ping". Without all that, the odds of dying are a lot higher. That's why I like the mechanic of a failed save sending you into negative hitpoints.

 

[Artoomis]

How about modeling the heart attack after Arsenic poisoning (no save, of course, since you have determined that the NPC is having the Heart Attack.

First round, he clutches his chest and takes 1 con point of damage. 1 minute later he takes 1d8 Con damage. If you intend this to be fatal without PC intervention, do another d8 Con damage every minute.

Treatment, however, would be different but sort of like poison. You can cure the damage without necessarily stopping further damage.

Allow a Heal check, DC 15 to identify what's happening and to realize that this is beyond what the Heal skill can do. A "Heal" spell will certainly cure him completely. Any Restoration spell will stabilize him and heal the current Con damage, but not prevent another heart attack. I'd allow a Restoration spell to keep him from having any further damage for at least 1 day (gotta give the PCs a chance, after all).

You might consider a Heal check of DC 25 or more to stabilize him and prevent further damage as long as he remains under constant care of the person who makes the Heal check.

 

[Otterscrubber]

For people saying DC insane, I'd like to note that a lot more people survive a heart attack than say, getting injected with three gallons of Giant Spider Venom.

Just as an FYI, people only survive heart attacks when rushed to a hospital where they receive special drugs, called "Clot Busters", which help to unclog the blocked coronary artery. Even then the drug must be administered within a few hours for its effect to be helpful. In the absence of these medicine, like in most D&D campaigns, a person would die on their own almost always.

 

[Artoomis]

Just as an FYI, people only survive heart attacks when rushed to a hospital where they receive special drugs, called "Clot Busters", which help to unclog the blocked coronary artery. Even then the drug must be administered within a few hours for its effect to be helpful. In the absence of these medicine, like in most D&D campaigns, a person would die on their own almost always.

Absolutely untrue. Heart attacks vary considerably in severity. Some folks have several before they even realize they've had one. Lot's of folks pre-modern drugs were diagnosed with heart attacks and survived.

 

[BSF]

As a corollary - Should this be considered a death by natural means? In other words, will raise dead work? That would be one way PC's might seek to rectify the situation.

I think I would probably lump a heart attack in as "natural". Though, poisoning or a magical affect to simulate a heart attack would be "unnatural".

 

[Pagan priest]

It is from midieval herblore that we get one of the best modern drugs for heart disease. Digitalis is made from foxglove, a poisonous plant that was used by those that knew how, to treat a person with a heart condition. If the person survives the initial heart attack, the village wise woman might be able to help insure long term survival.