Held and reflex saves

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re

As I stated, if you want to test what I am asserting...

Not really, no. With all due respect, the rules are in no way unambiguous, and whatever House Rules you choose to apply make no difference whatsoever to me.

-Hyp.

 

[Celtavian]

Re

That is fine Hypersmurf. I concur, the rules are not ambiguous.

I was giving the poster my opinion based on my experience. To me, roleplaying games should not be the equivalent of a legal debate. I understand that not everyone brings the same experience to the table, so they won't come to the same conclusions.

I certainly don't want roleplaying games to devolve into some argument about the exact interpretation of the rules without us creative gamers being able to voice our opinions on certain matters based on our experience or understanding of how certain real world phenomena work. I have always played this game with people who like to sit down and think about the situations they are in and apply a good deal of common sense to the situation.

For example, recently we were in a battle with stirges. The stirges attcked and started sticking their beaks into players. The players were killing the attached stirges. One of the players had the Cleave feat. We disallowed the use of the cleave feat because we felt a cleave blow should be a wide sweeping blow that can hit multiple enemies. We didn't feel a wide sweeping blow could be done while attacking attached stirges.

This is the way we like to play. I always encourage others to think outside the box about the rules so that they are actually using their imagination to visualize what is actually occurring and see whether or not a rule should reasonably apply.

I am of the opinion that being denied a dex bonus to AC when being caught "flat-footed" means you are slow to react or move. Slow reaction or movement would definitely affect your ability to dodge a fireball or lightning bolt as well as a sword blow or arrow shot. I feel this is consistent with the intent of the rule, but as you stated, not with the exact interpretation.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re

One of the players had the Cleave feat. We disallowed the use of the cleave feat because we felt a cleave blow should be a wide sweeping blow that can hit multiple enemies.

What do you do if someone with Cleave is using a Punching Dagger or a Longspear?

-Hyp.

 

[Celtavian]

Re

What do you do if someone with Cleave is using a Punching Dagger or a Longspear?

Punching dagger: Wide, roundhouse type swing that punctures and tears the flesh kind of like how Wolverine slashes multiple people in the comics.

Longspear: Angular puncture wound while shifting the stance to allow a sweeping stab arc into the next target, unless of course the target has closed in.

It is difficult to show on a message board, but if you use a long stick of somekind say a tree branch or maybe a long tent pole, you can manage a sweeping stab arc. We generally use brooms for spears, but they are not long enough.

We get in some really interesting debates around our table. Many household items become props.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re

Longspear: Angular puncture wound while shifting the stance to allow a sweeping stab arc into the next target, unless of course the target has closed in.

And a "sweeping stab arc" that does fatal piercing damage to one target ten feet away from you before dealing piercing damage to another target, positioned at right angles relative to the original target from the line of the first attack...

... is more plausible than slicing through two oversized mosquitoes with one blow?

-Hyp.

 

[Norfleet]

Here's another interesting question for you:

Should somebody who's unable to perceive the incoming attack in any way, get a reflex save? Suppose he's not flat-footed, not helpless, but simply can't see the attack coming at all. Should he get a reflex save? Clearly, a reflex save is generally construed as some sort of reaction to an attack that a character is at least subconciously aware of, but what if he isn't aware of the attack at all, and has no way of knowing about it until it actually affects him, by which time it's too late?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Should somebody who's unable to perceive the incoming attack in any way, get a reflex save?

Is your question "Should" or "Does"?

-Hyp.

 

[RandomNPC]

In our games the way we rationalize getting a reflex save while flat-footed is that when a fireball goes off it would probably burn for some amount of time, especially to do up to 10d6 of damage, therefore you can always shield yourself during the instant of it going off, for half damage, evasion abilities are just uncanny and therefore are as explainable as how the wizard made the fireball out of thin air in the first place, but this at least leaves a basis for why someone should be able to make a reflex save.

 

[Witch Doctor]

I here all this talk about how logical something is, or how it relates to real life...and this has me puzzled.

When had D&D ever been logical? The very act of casting a spell isn't very logical at all. As for real life, I play D&D to avoid that for a few hours.

I guess I just don't get it. I just play to have fun, so whatever floats your boat is ok with me.

 

[Celtavian]

Re

Norfleet,

Yep, invisible mages can be hell. That is why when they show up, our party mage and cleric have spells ready to counter invisibility.


Witch Doctor,

Our gaming group finds applying "realism" to D&D actions entertaining. Some don't, that is why they follow the rules precisely. They have different tastes.

Some folks even come to different conclusions based upon their own analysis.

My main point is that people should be thinking why they are playing. Visualizing the environment they are in and attempting to ascertain how things would work, then apply necessary rules changes based upon their visual analysis of how something could be pulled off. I often make my players explain how they are doing something so I can visualize them doing it rather than let them do it because the rules say so. This is how I like to play.

I find it utterly boring when someone appliles the rules with no thought given to how the attack might look visually. Makes the game less fun and the combats less interesting. If I wanted to be limited by a rulesbook, I would stick with video games and board games. This is an RPG , it uses the most powerful creative tool in all of creation, the mind.