Held and reflex saves

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re

I find it utterly boring when someone appliles the rules with no thought given to how the attack might look visually.

I have no problem visualising someone using the Cleave feat against two attached Stirges - they take a hack at one with their hand axe, and if they drop it below 0 hit points, they make an immediate hack at another one with the same handaxe.

Applying flavour to explain the mechanics is great. Modifying the mechanics to explain the flavour is wrong.

-Hyp.

 

[imiz]

So he only gets a reflex save if he has 'room to move'.

This moves it into the DM's discretion box right away doesn't it? Or has it been described somewhere in the rules what exactly 'room to move' is.

Admittedly there are some definitions where this is clear like being bound like a sausage, but there is no guideline for other situations.

For example a human in a 3' diameter pipe can still roll up into a ball to avoid some of the damage or is this not enough? Would everyone allow evasion to work in this case?

 

[Celtavian]

Re

Modifying the mechanics to explain the flavour is wrong.

Wrong? Impossible. This is an RPG. As long as the rules are applied consistently there is no such thing as wrong.

I have no problem visualising someone using the Cleave feat against two attached Stirges - they take a hack at one with their hand axe, and if they drop it below 0 hit points, they make an immediate hack at another one with the same handaxe.

Then you are implying that Cleave is nothing more than an extra attack if you drop an enemy? It is not a combat technique that involves using a weapon to deliver powerful, sweeping blows that cleave through opponents allowing another opponent to be attacked?

You call reducing Cleave to an extra attack visualization of how the attack would work?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re

Then you are implying that Cleave is nothing more than an extra attack if you drop an enemy?

Yup.

It is not a combat technique that involves using a weapon to deliver powerful, sweeping blows that cleave through opponents allowing another opponent to be attacked?

If that fits the situation, sure. If a powerful, sweeping blow is impossible, then another flavour description needs to be found to fit that particular situation. The mechanics are unambiguous - if you drop the opponent, you get an extra attack. The flavour can be whatever fits.

You call reducing Cleave to an extra attack visualization of how the attack would work?

In the stirge situation, it could be. It could be lining up the angle of the blade to scrape one away so that the follow-through carried into the next. It could be a triumphant surge of adrenalin that allowed the character to react more quickly. It could be the second stirge being shocked at the death of his buddy and leaving a gap in his defences.

The mechanic is clear. The flavour is discretionary.

-Hyp.

 

[Darklone]

Example. A paladin in my group was attacked by Dire rats from two sides (flanking him, those beasties).

He draw his greatsword from his back, attacked, killed one and cleaved through the other one.

I described his action as drawing the sword from the scabbard at his back with the edge through the first rat while breaking the skull of the second one with the pommel.

Due to personal experience with medieval fighting techniques there are no blind hacks and slashes in my games. I have to admit that I have often difficulties to describe Great Cleave attacks... but well, it's a game

 

[Fenes 2]

I am fond of describing the cleave of our longspear-wielding barbarian as "You skever two enemies on your spear". Since we don't use miniatures or a battlemap it is easy to imagine. I also use the "Swining around you use the monumentum to pierce another" image if he is being flanked.

Words failed me however to describe the carnage when the barbarian with great cleave and combat reflexes was surrounded by half a dozen werejackals. I just called it a "bloody mess".

 

[Gort]

Re: Re

Let me see, high level rogue with favorable reflex save, magic items and UNCANNY DODGE. Hmmm, rogues in my campaign aren't flat-footed very often as in never.

Remember, Uncanny Dodge doesn't stop you being flat-footed.

It just lets you keep your dex bonus to AC when you ARE. So other things like not being able to make attacks of opportunity still apply.

 

[Norfleet]

Re: Re

Yep, invisible mages can be hell. That is why when they show up, our party mage and cleric have spells ready to counter invisibility.

Yes, but I'm not talking about invisible mages. Even if an invisible mage launches a fireball, you can see the fireball incoming.

What happens if you can't see, hear, or feel the mage OR the fireball, leaving not only an undetectable attacker, but an undetectable attack that you have no idea is about to occur?

 

[Celtavian]

Re

The mechanic is clear. The flavour is discretionary.

This idea is in reverse for me. I am much more of a story/flavor player. Mechanics are just guidelines, just like they have always been in every previous edition of DnD. One of the reason why I don't agree with the players who say that 3rd edition is too bogged down with mechanics.

It is more important that I apply rules consistently than that I apply the official rule or spend too much time looking up a specific rule or series of rules to apply to a situation.

Norfleet,

Same thing would apply. No dex bonus on reflex saves if they are unaware, surprised or flat-footed.

As long as they can move and have some room, they get a reflex save.

Gort,

If we use the rule that Uncanny Dodge makes it so that you don't lose your Dex bonus for AC, we also have made it so that Uncanny Dodge allows a player to keep their Dex bonus to Reflex saves and the like.

 

[Celtavian]

Re

I am fond of describing the cleave of our longspear-wielding barbarian as "You skever two enemies on your spear". Since we don't use miniatures or a battlemap it is easy to imagine. I also use the "Swining around you use the monumentum to pierce another" image if he is being flanked.

This I can see as a Cleave attack. You could even have the Barbarian pick the first guy he killed up and then ram the second guy through.