Hellcat and grappling

[Kershek]

The hellcat entry states it can pounce. In other words, it can make a full attack in the first round of combat even if it moved that round. Let's say a hellcat pounced on a character and hit with its bite, invoking Improved Grab. It succeeds and pulls the character into its space. Both are now grappling and it can continue with two rakes.

Now, according to grappling with a monster, you are supposed to use the BAB of the creature to determine it's iterative grapple checks. The hellcat, as an outsider with 9 hit dice, has a +9/+4 BAB.

Does this mean, after the pounce that does a claw, claw, bite, (improved grab), rake, rake... it can use that +4 BAB for another grapple check, therefore doing automatic bite damage and two more rakes?

If not, can it do this next round? Or should I also add those claw attacks in the second grapple check as well?

 

[hong]

Iterative attacks only come into play when using weapons. Not natural weapons like claws and bites, but actual sharp sticks.

 

[Kershek]

Don't you agree, however, that it gets two grapple checks in one round because of its BAB?

 

[Mahali]

No, it has improved grab right? Every time it makes an attack and hits it gets a grapple check to start a grapple.

If it's already in a grapple it attacks as normal or per creature description.

 

[Kershek]

This is confusing. According to PHB p137, it says

To start a grapple, you first need to grab and hold your target. Attempting to start a grapple is the equivalent of making a melee attack. If you get multiple attacks in a round, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses).

According to the BAB rules for outsiders, the hellcat has a +9/+4 BAB. It would seem to me the hellcat can get two grapple checks because of this.

And hong, I didn't say iterative attacks, I said iterative grapple checks per the above rule. Am I mistaken?

 

[Dash Dannigan]

You are correct Kershek, because the hellcat has a BAB +7/+2 it can attempt a grapple check twice per round as per the grapple rules. Incidentally a hellcat has 7 HD.

Once in a grapple the hellcat can attack as normal with light weapons, in this case one of the hellcat's paws at +12/+7 (because you can't attack with two weapons). Or the hellcat can make two grapple-checks to try and deal unarmed/natural weapon damage (at -4 for dealing non-subdual damage, +4 for large sz). I would stick with the hellcats primary and secondary weapon listing and make one claw grapple-check at +12 and one bite grapple-check at +7.

A hellcat can make two rake attacks against a "held" creature. The improved grab ability provides the hellcat with the option of having the creature "held" at a -20 grapple check on any remaining grapple checks until it's next turn. If the Hellcat successfully grapples after a bite attack and then chooses the "held" option and takes the -20 (it is also not considered grappled versus others), then yes it will be able to do two rake attacks (at +12 melee). These are normal attacks.

Keep in mind the -20 only applies to future gapple checks (if any) and goes away when its the hellcat's next turn, where it may choose to "hold" the creature. This likely will only come into play if another creature decides to grapple with the hellcat while it has it's target "held" and the -20 is applied to the hellcats grapple-check.

 

[hong]

And hong, I didn't say iterative attacks, I said iterative grapple checks per the above rule. Am I mistaken?

To make a grapple check without the benefit of improved grab, you have to make a touch attack first. You can make a touch attack in place of a regular iterative attack. Since the hellcat doesn't get iterative attacks when using its natural attacks, it can't grapple twice.

 

[drnuncheon]

A hellcat can make two rake attacks against a "held" creature. The improved grab ability provides the hellcat with the option of having the creature "held" at a -20 grapple check on any remaining grapple checks until it's next turn.

Er...no. Any grapple is a 'hold' (see PHB 137). The -20 to grapple checks is only if you want to hold with one limb and not be considered grappled yourself (and thus retain dex bonus to AC, ability to attack other opponents, etc)

J

 

[dcollins]

The Main FAQ (v01302003 p. 39) makes it pretty clear that monsters with high BAB can make multiple grappling attacks in a round.

Can a creature with two natural weapons, say two claws, make two grapple attempts in a single round? Could a character using the rules for fighting with two weapons pull off the same trick? Exactly how many grapple checks can you make each round?

You can make one grapple check for every attack your base attack bonus normally allows. The number of weapons you use doesn’t affect the number of grapple checks you can make. For example, a dire ape, an animal with 5 Hit Dice, has a base attack bonus of +3, so it can make only one grapple check each round despite its three natural weapons... Note that creatures with the improved grab special attack can use their natural weapons in a grapple.

Note that the dire ape in the example is allowed a single grapple only because of low hit dice (BAB), not because it has natural weapons generally.

However, that's only an option if the creature foregoes its normal natural weapon attack routine. It certainly can't add another grapple attack after using all its natural weapons in a full attack.

 

[Kershek]

The Main FAQ (v01302003 p. 39) makes it pretty clear that monsters with high BAB can make multiple grappling attacks in a round.

Thank you! Now I remember seeing that in the FAQ.

However, that's only an option if the creature foregoes its normal natural weapon attack routine. It certainly can't add another grapple attack after using all its natural weapons in a full attack.

Ok, that makes sense.

So, it's this:

Round 1: claw, claw, bite, (improved grab), rake, rake
Round 2: grapple (automatic bite, rake, rake), grapple (automatic bite, rake, rake)

Right?