Help a DM w/ Character Creation

[The Souljourner]

It's all about point buy. No uber characters and no sucky characters. There's absolutely nothing wrong with 28-32 point buy. Personally, I think 32 is a little more reasonable for the heroic feel. Yes, you probably won't start with 18 17 16, but you don't *need* stats that high. Remember, a 16 Dex is only one AC different from 18. Is it really going to matter if your rogue has 18 AC instead of 19?

I think you just need to tell them to get over it. Force point buy, and everyone will be happier in the end. And I also really like standard hitpoints, as well. Something that important shouldn't be left up to chance. I've used 1/2 + 1 (so wizards 3, rogues 4, clerics 5, fighters 6, barbarians 7) and it's amazing how well that works. You don't have the paladin with fewer hitpoints than the wizard, just because the paladin rolls like crap and the wizard rolls really well.

Another option I've done is roll hitpoints until you get something in the top half. It's a little more random, but you're guaranteed not to get screwed with a 1 on your D12.

-The Souljourner

 

[Old Fart]

I've been running some HERO system games for awhile now, and was drafted to get back into D&D with another group of friends when the current DM we are with decided at the end ofthe last adventure to hang his hat up for awhile. Tas

So just tell your players as a HERO system GM you're more comfortable with point-buy characters, and if they're not willing to accept that get someone else to DM and spare yourself the headache.

They go on me that their charcters will be useless, that it takes too many pts to get an 18, ect.
Tas

In the campaign I DM I've given players a "free" 18 and a smaller point pool to divide amongst their other stats. This allows everyone to have at least one high stat without them being uber-characters.

Just my two coppers

 

[rrealm]

That was my original plan, but everyone involved on the player side of things didn't want it. The guys who rolled well wanted to keep their characters, and the guys that didn't told me that point buy at any level I remember being reasonable (28-30) was waay too low, since that meant "an 18, a 16, and a bunch of crap" I tried to explain that you don't need an 18 at the start even with a caster, but everyone is convinced their DC's will suck otherwise. I wonder why they always want random stuff if they are only willing to put up with the better half of random (i.e. above average)

Tas

You are clearly going to be playing a campaign with power gamers. I too had many experiences with players rolling up characters and someone rolls badly. Feeling sympathetic for them, I allow them to reroll and they get better than one of the original players. Now that player wants to reroll and in a few hours, I have five people with all 17s and 18s. Now I don’t even ask my players. I tell them it will be point buy (I use 32 pts) or no campaign. At first I had some grumbling but once my players realized that their character was equal to the others around them, they really embraced the idea of point buy. Without a point buy, I found players (myself included) have a tendency to think, “If he didn’t have eight more ability points than me, I would have failed like me.” Or “He only does so well because he has two 18s, two 17s, a 16, and a 14 which is 12 points more than me.”

You also need to consider that “basic” monsters or NPCs are balanced for the “average” party. If your party has all high ability scores and you want to provide a balanced encounter, you need to do extra work. You need to give your creatures more hit points, better stats and recalculate everything because now their strength and dexterity (or whichever stats) went up. If you don’t want to do the extra work and simply use the MM critters, the challenges could become too easy. Obviously this can be counteracted to a degree by placing more minis on the board but that’s just more work you have to do in battle. Looking up save throws, calculating more creatures HPs on the fly, more initiative rolls, etc.

Your players and you need to play the same type of game. If you want to play a hack and slash game with no role-playing or NPC interaction in the game but your players want to face little combat and deal mainly with NPCs and politics, the game will not work out. Same goes for the reverse.

Hope this helps.

 

[drowjoe]

When I DM'd I used the following system
4d6, re-roll 1's
Take highest score and turn it into 18 unless you already roll one.
I have them do 6 set's of stats and then let them choose the one they want from those 6.
After all, they are supposed to be the cream of the crop in your world. That's why they are adventuring.
The campaign I'm in currently I'm playing a Dwarven Cleric. He's level 9 and has the following stats
Str 12
Dex 14 - Put both my ability increases here, minus 2 racial modifer
Con 20 - Amulet Health +2, along with +2 racial modifier
Int 10
Wis 20 - The race of dwarf give's him +2 racial bonus to wisdom
Chr 5 - minus 2 racial modifer

So at level one his stats where
Str 12
Dex 14 (-2) = 12
Con 16 (+2) = 18
Int 10
Wis 18 (+2) = 20
Chr 7 (-2) = 5

 

[Senior Bobo]

Rolling for all players

I let all my players roll (4d6 drop lowest) and everyone writes down the totals they get. Then each player can take and use any of the stats any player used and order them for their own character. This preserves the ability for people to roll, injects some luck, and sometimes you get interesting decicions. "Do I want the stats with one 18 and all 11's or the set with 3 14's"? Plus it keeps everyone on an even keel if they chose to be. I've had players say "nah, I'll keep what I rolled", even though it was 8 pts lower then the 'best' on the table.

Then of course i write down the sets of stats myself and use them for all the major bad guys, so if they roll really well they only have themselves to blame.

I've found this work well with groups of 3-4 people. I wouldn't recommend it with groups of 6 or more unless you like really, really high stat totals, because someone will eventually roll well.

This idea makes rolling less of a competion and more of a collaboration.

 

[italianranma]

Ever read Knights of the Dinner Table? I forgot the name of one of the characters in there, but he's an employee of Gary Jackson Inc. whenever he games anywhere, if his players complain he puts them in there place with some kind of penalty. Whatever method you choose (I recommend the 30 point buy) as soon as someone complains hit them with something worse. A good example of this was our DM, his friend wanted a new character, but the DM didn't want to go through the hassle of making it work in the campaign, so he said, ok, but he'll be two levels lower then the rest of the party. The player started complaining, and now his new character would be 3 levels below the rest of the party. And if you keep it up (the DM told him) the character would be using a 26 point buy as well. We usually don't complain too much anymore.

 

[D+1]

Two problems.

One; random rolls means RANDOM. It must be beaten into the thick skulls of players such as you describe that if their rolls suck but still pass minimums - you DID remember to institute minimums didn't you? - then they can just shut up. Really. Say these words to them: "You rolled the dice. You WANTED to roll the dice. By rolling the dice you agreed to accept the results whatever they were. Now live with the results and SHUT UP you pathetic, whining, powergaming, munchkin, girlie-men."

Two; you started to give ground simply by beginning to offer them additional alternatives which they really aren't deserving of or entitled to. Now they will almost certainly not be satisfied until their stats match those of the high-rolling players. Immaturity knows no bounds. And by attempting to placate them you are simultaneously cheating the high-rollers out of their due as well. When THEY rolled well they did NOT do so with the understanding that all you have to do is complain long and loud enough and you'll simply get to roll until you get what you want.

Unless of course you failed to institute decent minimums for those random rolls. By the book that means if (before racial adjustments) you have no score higher than 13, or the sum of your modifiers is 0 or less, you get to reroll. In practical terms if you're just over that threshold your character's gonna suck. In comparison to really decent stat rolls of other characters, as a player you're gonna be rather torqued.

If so, then TALK to all your players. Ask them what THEY think the minimums ought to be and why. Write down these minimums so there can be no argument, EVER. Let the whiny wankers reroll - and let the NON-whiners reroll too, to try for even better stats. Fair is fair after all. Then tell everyone you never want to hear those complaints again and do NOT bring it up again yourself.

If anyone so much as quivers a lip then you can justifiably throw a fit and quit on the spot, telling them you cannot sanely commit yourself to a long-term campaign that starts out with a train-wreck right at character creation. If they get back in line, refuse to let ANY of the existing characters be used. Start over and reiterate that if they roll badly again they can like it or walk out the door because you don't need their crap.

Just MHO.

 

[Majere]

Hmm
Well I geuss my first point is that, your players we "Bang out of order". What next ?
"Oh I failed my saving throw, can I reroll until I pass ?"
When players pick up dice they explicitly accept the inherant randomness of the results. Thus the behaviour of your players is both rude, and immature. I would whack them with a 30point buy and tell them to take it or leave the campeign. If they shout about "not good enough stats" the answer is simple, your campeign was balanced for 30 point players and if they are stronger you would have to rewrite all your material, which would put the game back lets say.. 12 months.

As a second point I have to say that my personal opinion is that, bigger characters = better. My reasons are this.
1) A Good DM will tailor his encounters to an appropriate level.
If you have a bunch of commoners then a goblin is going to challenge them, if you have a party of munchkins you will need a squad of goblins. But at all times the DM should seek to challenge his party therefore the power of the PC's is somewhat irrelevant.
If the party has high stats, simple set them APL+1 or APL+2 CR encounters to keep them challenged.

2) High stats characters make players happy.
Everyone likes having lots of numbers, we are human, we like all those +'s.

3) High Stat characters make low level games more interesting.
Because a high statted level 1 group may be as powerful as a low statted 2nd level group, low level campeigns become more interesting because there are a wider range of challenges appropriate to that parties level. No more endless hordes of goblins and orcs at first level if the party can handle CR2 or CR3 creatures and be APPROPRIATELY CHALLENGED.

In my experience, as long as the DM remebers to add a point or two to the CR's of his encounters I find high stat games are more enjoyable than low number games. Its what polititians call "Feel good factor".

Unbalanced characters lead to envy and disputes from immature gamers. the trick here is to have a system where everyone rolls good dtats, or to use point buy. I actually REALLY like the "+" buy system and I think I will use that in future.

Majere

 

[joelmarcus]

sorry your players are being wussies. you have to decide FOR them what kind of character setting you want IE power gamer, gamer with a few good stats, or average joe. it seems that there is power envy going on there in your group. I do not let people in my party share information about character sheets stats with each other. It's just a good idea because people are always human in saying my xyz is better than your xyz. Big deal. I have run a character sorcerer at level 1-3 and the only spell that I had ever cast was cause fear. The ENTIRE TIME. Combat? HELL NO i was a pacifist. ROLEPLAYING that I disdained combat(that was things for the common folk like pesants) but put in my worthy effort of things like halving the enemys forces to a manageable size piecemeal. anyway if you want a more powerful group start everyone with 10's and add 24-30 points where ever they like. So everyone will have an 18 or 3 and a bunch of 10's. (then send a mob along that takes advantage of thier weaknesses! heh heh heh!!!)

 

[Greatwyrm]

I also think your players are wimping out on you. I can't remember the last time I had a natural 18 in an ability, much less started with one.

If they want to complain, give them an option. 28 point-buy stats. They can buy an extra stat point for a permanent 2% penalty to xp. If they want 40 point characters, they give up 24% of their xp.