Help adding spellcasting levels to a monster.

[johnsemlak]

I'd like to add some spellcasting levels to a monster, in this case the Bhut from the old module X4 (the coversion I'm using for it is here).

The creature is already a CR 5 creature; I'm shooting to make it a CR 9-10.

I'm wondering how best to add spellcasting levels. First question, if I add say 5 wizard levels, the result is that the Bhut is a Level 5 Wizard and total CR 10; is that correct?

Second, are there any tips on making such spellcasting levels more potent; I dont' think adding Wizard levels 1-5 would really offer the challenge I'm looking for here. Perhaps it's just better to add some spell like abilities to the more powerful Bhut?

 

[Seravin]

I'd like to add some spellcasting levels to a monster, in this case the Bhut from the old module X4 (the coversion I'm using for it is here).

The creature is already a CR 5 creature; I'm shooting to make it a CR 9-10.

I'm wondering how best to add spellcasting levels. First question, if I add say 5 wizard levels, the result is that the Bhut is a Level 5 Wizard and total CR 10; is that correct?

Second, are there any tips on making such spellcasting levels more potent; I dont' think adding Wizard levels 1-5 would really offer the challenge I'm looking for here. Perhaps it's just better to add some spell like abilities to the more powerful Bhut?

Well, looking at your conversion it looks like you're doing a 3.0 conversion. Therefore you are correct and adding 5 levels of wizard to the Bhut would make it a CR10.

You might want to steal a 3.5 convention though and call the wizard levels non-associated - each level of wizard would only count for +1/2 CR; thus adding 8 levels of wizard would make it a CR9 encounter.

Alternatively you could always add a template which grants spell casting abilities. Half-Fiendish seems like an obvious possibility, though depending upon the campaign you could use one of the Half-Elementals from the Manual of the Planes. To make up the CR difference, advance the HD which will increase the number of spell-like abilities granted by the half-fiend template.

 

[johnsemlak]

Actually, I'm playing 3.5. What about the conversion I'm using is specific to 3.0?

You might want to steal a 3.5 convention though and call the wizard levels non-associated - each level of wizard would only count for +1/2 CR; thus adding 8 levels of wizard would make it a CR9 encounter.

What exactly does 'non-associated' mean?

Is this the standard way spellcasting (or class) levels are added to a monster in 3.5?

 

[Seravin]

Actually, I'm playing 3.5. What about the conversion I'm using is specific to 3.0?

Shapechanger is no longer a monster type in 3.5. Under the 3.5 the bhut should be either a monstrous humanoid, aberration, or undead - whichever is the most appropriate. I'd probably say type: Monstrous Humanoid [Shapechanger].

What exactly does 'non-associated' mean?

Page 293 and 294 of the Monster Manual have a pretty good explanation, but essentially 3.5 recognizes that not all Character Classes benefits monsters equally. For example, a troll gets more mileage out of a barbarian level then a wizard level since the barbarian plays to the troll's strengths.
Classes that do not play to the creature's strength only count as +1/2CR until those levels equal the creature's normal hit dice., after that the class is associated and counts as +1CR/level as normal.

So the bhut with 7HD would treat the first six levels of wizard as non-associated, giving it a CR 8. Another level of wizard (lvl7) would make it CR 8.5. Yet another level of Wizard (lvl8) would make it CR9 .5. I'd round down here though.

Is this the standard way spellcasting (or class) levels are added to a monster in 3.5?

Not really. It depends on the monster. For example, Sorceror levels would be associated for Rakshasa, which already are treated as having Sorceror levels. Every additional Sorceror level directly adds to the spellcasting capability of the creature and the class is therefore 'associated'.

Of course, advancing monster's is always an art.
However I find it easier under 3.5 than 3.0.

 

[johnsemlak]

Thanks for the responses. I didn't have the MM handy so I couldn't look these things up.

 

[Seravin]

Thanks for the responses. I didn't have the MM handy so I couldn't look these things up.

Glad to be of help. I just checked Morrus' links to the SRD - there's a section on Improving Monsters - it seems to have the relevant text and tables.

As a side note, I just noticed that the DR for the Bhut is 3.0 also.

 

[johnsemlak]

OK, I've done a write up of a Bhut/Lvl8 CLeric. Any comments on it?

Bhut
Medium-Size monstrous humanoid (shapechanger)
Level 8 Cleric

Hit Dice: 7d8+7 + 8d8+8 (81 hp)
Initiative:+4 (+4 Improved Initiative)
Speed: 30 ft.
AC: 16 (+6 natural)
Attacks: By Weapon + 13/8/3 or Bite +13 melee, 2 Claws +8 melee
Damage: Bite 1d6+1, Claws 1d4
Space/Reach: 5 ft. by 5 ft. / 5 ft.
Special Attacks: Numbing bite, Turn Undead
Special Qualities: Inscrutable aura, damage reduction 5/Magic, darkvision 60 ft., undead immunities, vulnerable to blessed weapons
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +7, Will +14
Abilities: Str 12, Dex 11, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 12
Skills: Bluff +5, Hide +7, Listen +7, Move Silently +9, Search +2, Spot +6, Concentration: +11, Spellcraft +8
Feats: Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Stealthy, Combat Casting, Alertness, Brew Potion
Climate/Terrain: Any land
Organization: Solitary, Pair, Pack (2d4)
Challenge Rating: 9
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Neutral evil


Magic:
Deity:
Domains:
Caster Level: 8
Spells: 6/5+1/4+1/4+1/3+1


Combat

Inscrutable Aura (Ex): The aura of a bhut is difficult to divine, as though it is the subject of an undetectable alignment spell.
Numbing Bite (Ex): Any creature taking damage from a bhut?s bite attack must make a Fortitude save (DC 15). Creatures that fail this save are considered Flat-footed until their next action, and Shaken for 1d4 subsequent rounds.
Undead Immunities (Ex): Although not actually undead, bhuts do share some characteristic immunities of that state. They are immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, and necromantic effects, and they ignore mind-influencing effects. They are, however, subject to all other effects as normal.
Vulnerable to Blessed Weapons (Ex): Any hit scored on a bhut by a blessed or holy weapon forces the bhut to make an immediate Fortitude Save (DC 10 + the damage dealt) or die immediately.

Equipment:


Here is a Write-up of the base creature for 3.5 Rules:

Bhut
Medium-Size monstrous humanoid (shapechanger)

Hit Dice: 7d8+7 (38 hp)
Initiative:+4 (+4 Improved Initiative)
Speed: 30 ft.
AC: 16 (+6 natural)
Attacks: Bite +7 melee, 2 Claws +2 melee
Damage: Bite 1d6+1, Claws 1d4
Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 5 ft. / 5 ft.
Special Attacks: Numbing bite
Special Qualities: Inscrutable aura, damage reduction 5/Magic, darkvision 60 ft., undead immunities, vulnerable to blessed weapons
Saves: [Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +5
Abilities: Str 12, Dex 11, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 11, Cha 12
Skills: Bluff +6, Hide +8, Listen +4, Move Silently +11, Search +4, Spot +3
Feats: Great Fortitude, Improved Initiative, Stealthy
Climate/Terrain: Any land
Organization: Solitary, Pair, Pack (2d4)
Challenge Rating: 5
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually neutral evil
Advancement: 8?10 HD (Medium-size), 11?20 HD (Large)

Bhuts are intelligent, evil beings similar in many ways to lycanthropes and undead. During the daytime, bhuts appear to be normal humans. At night their hair becomes wild and their skin scaly. Their hands turn into claws, and their teeth become fangs. While in this form, they hunt humans and demi-humans for food. They are extremely clever and often use deception and trickery to obtain their meals.

Bhuts prefer to live near human settlements, preying on those living there. Often, they will work together. Normally, they will assume some innocent cover (monks, traveling gypsies, a family on the edge of town, etc.) to prevent suspicion.

Combat
Inscrutable Aura (Ex): The aura of a bhut is difficult to divine, as though it is the subject of an undetectable alignment spell.
Numbing Bite (Ex): Any creature taking damage from a bhut?s bite attack must make a Fortitude save (DC 15). Creatures that fail this save are considered Flat-footed until their next action, and Shaken for 1d4 subsequent rounds.
Undead Immunities (Ex): Although not actually undead, bhuts do share some characteristic immunities of that state. They are immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, and necromantic effects, and they ignore mind-influencing effects. They are, however, subject to all other effects as normal.
Vulnerable to Blessed Weapons (Ex): Any hit scored on a bhut by a blessed or holy weapon forces the bhut to make an immediate Fortitude Save (DC 10 + the damage dealt) or die immediately.

 

[Corporal_Cupcake]

Neat!

That's a pretty cool base monster. How do you DMs (and players) feel about the "non-associated" CR adjustment? Is the creature here, with 8 levels of cleric as well as monster goodness, really only a CR 9?

 

[johnsemlak]

That's a pretty cool base monster. How do you DMs (and players) feel about the "non-associated" CR adjustment? Is the creature here, with 8 levels of cleric as well as monster goodness, really only a CR 9?

Very good question

I was wondering myself. The creature has 15 total Hit Dice. The Cleric Levels not only grant spellcasting powers but a substantial improvement to BAB. I'm no expert at determining CRs, but would it be reasonable to knock this creature up by one, to CR 10? (actually according to the associated levels, I would have added a total of 4.5 levels to the CR. I decided to round down above.)

In general, I seems to me you have to use the rules on associated levels as a guideline, not a strict rule. It really should depend how how the class works towards the specific strengths of the monster in question.

 

[shilsen]

I was wondering myself. The creature has 15 total Hit Dice. The Cleric Levels not only grant spellcasting powers but a substantial improvement to BAB. I'm no expert at determining CRs, but would it be reasonable to knock this creature up by one, to CR 10? (actually according to the associated levels, I would have added a total of 4.5 levels to the CR. I decided to round down above.)

Definitely a CR 10. Just compare it to a Clr10. The only advantage the Clr10 has over the Bhut Clr8 is access to 5th lvl spells, and while that is a considerable bonus, the Bhut has the edge in hp, BAB, saves, special abilities, etc. When dealing with fractional levels for creatures with non-associated class levels, it's always better to round up, in my experience.

In general, I seems to me you have to use the rules on associated levels as a guideline, not a strict rule. It really should depend how how the class works towards the specific strengths of the monster in question.

Definitely. And often a supposedly non-associated class can help a monster quite a lot (esp. spellcasting ones). For example, the MM may say that sorcerer is a non-associated class for frost giants, but a frost giant Sor1 with access to Shield and True Strike (for example) is just as dangerous as a frost giant Ftr1.