HELP! Avenger issue

[CovertOps]

Cool! He's spent 3 feats to get there (Leather Prof, Hide Prof, Imp. Armor of Faith) of the 4 he gets for 6th level. That's not an insignificant sacrifice.

He also needed a Str 13 and Con 13 (for Hide Prof. feat), and since the class requires neither of those stats (Avenger needs Wisdom primary, then Dex or Int secondary), his PC spent some significant point-buy to get there. So his PC base stats (pre-race, 1st) were 16, 15, 13, 13, 10, 8? That's not a great distribution (and it means he put a 15 on his primary stat: Wisdom, which sucks) so he made sacrifices there too. What race is his PC?

I'm guessing he started this PC at 6th, and so didn't "feel the burn" of this build.

Bottom Line: this guy sacrificed his attack roll *and* three feats to get to this high AC. Is that *really* a problem?

I guess the answer is yes, because he has a class feature that more than makes up for his "sacrifice". I seem to recall reading some other thread where someone had said that the 2 dice rolls you get from the Avenger class feature worked out to about +3.34 to hit statistically? I know it was something just over +3 so bottom line is he still hits just as often as any other striker if not more since it is assumed that you will have between a 16-20 primary stat and he has +3 above that from rolling twice.

Now that you mention it I should probably check to see if he didn't start with a 17/13 to get his 20/16 by using his level 4 bumps and then having enough points for the 13/13 Str/Con. You are correct in that he did not have to "feel the burn" of the build. IIRC you only need 13 Str OR Con for Hide, not both. No books/rules handy from work.

 

[IanB]

He would actually have to put a base 17 in his dex/int to get all the way to a +5 by 6th level, not a 16.

 

[Herschel]

I think he's using that double weapon Urgosh? +2 d12/d8. I don't care for Expertise and have house ruled them out replacing them with the bonus to all attacks at 5/15/25.

...This one particular player is a power gamer to the max and the rest of the party is just not as min/maxed as he is. This more than anything is what irks me about this the most. The "swing" between min/max and average players should not be this big.

So you gave them "Expertise" for free basically. Without making them spend a feat, they just got bumped two levels in attack bonus. If you throw standard level encounters at them you helped alleviate the penalty for what annoys you. But his primary attack bonus is still sub-par, especially since his weapon proficiency is only a +2, IIRC. I wouldn't call that Powergaming or Min/Maxing per se, he simply made the choice to build defensively. He's basically built a pseudo/secondary defender out of a striker at the expense of his primary role.

I honestly don't see it as a problem, it just requires you to approach it a little differently. He'll have a rough time hitting Elites w/ buddies, etc. And focused fire is NOT DM cheese, is good tactics. The party does it (or should be) so so should you. That's not "evil DMing", that's playing the baddies to their ability, experience and intelligence to make the game fun and a challenge.

 

[Nail]

Bottom Line: this guy sacrificed his attack roll *and* three feats to get to this high AC. Is that *really* a problem?

I guess the answer is yes, because he has a class feature that more than makes up for his "sacrifice".

Nope.

The class feature would be even more deadly if he hadn't taken the hit to his attack roll. The sacrifice is there. (Plus he could have taken 3 feats to increase his damage, etc.)

Remember that the Avenger class is built to be a striker. Unlike Barbarian, Sorcerer, Ranger, Warlock, etc, the Avenger gets its "extra" damage from hitting more often. By lowering (a bit) his attack roll, he reduces his effectiveness.

Also remember that he gets that juicy double roll only if he's only got one enemy adjacent. The Avenger has At-Wills that help make that happen, but it's by no means guaranteed. Just get more enemies adjacent to him, then *don't* attack him....watch how effective he gets then.

IIRC you only need 13 Str OR Con for Hide, not both.

Nope. You need a 13 Str and a 13 Con. (PC Builder would have caught that.) ...and that 13 Str is useless to the PC otherwise.

 

[Nail]

He would actually have to put a base 17 in his dex/int to get all the way to a +5 by 6th level, not a 16.

Blast. I was thinking he was 8th. Doh.

So, if he has a 20 Dex at 6th, then his initial stat buy (pre racial) was:

17, 14, 13, 13, 11, 8

For: Str 13, Con 13, Dex 17, Int 11, Wis 14, Chr 8 (then add racials and +1 4th lvl)

....which is really abyssmal, IMO. His attack stat is only 17 at 6th level (assuming a +2 Wis race). He's effectively -2 to hit compared to most PCs. And his Will defence is pretty low.

Seriously, have enemies cluster around him, then attack someone else. If minions mob this guy, he's neutered.

 

[CovertOps]

So you gave them "Expertise" for free basically. Without making them spend a feat, they just got bumped two levels in attack bonus. If you throw standard level encounters at them you helped alleviate the penalty for what annoys you. But his primary attack bonus is still sub-par, especially since his weapon proficiency is only a +2, IIRC. I wouldn't call that Powergaming or Min/Maxing per se, he simply made the choice to build defensively. He's basically built a pseudo/secondary defender out of a striker at the expense of his primary role.

I honestly don't see it as a problem, it just requires you to approach it a little differently. He'll have a rough time hitting Elites w/ buddies, etc. And focused fire is NOT DM cheese, is good tactics. The party does it (or should be) so so should you. That's not "evil DMing", that's playing the baddies to their ability, experience and intelligence to make the game fun and a challenge.

First, I havn't seen the level n encounter that is even vaguely challenging to my party. It's more on par with a speed bump in a parking lot...it slows you down a little, but that's about it.
Second, the reason I am annoyed by Expertise is the same reason I'm annoyed by this. It increases the disparity between those who have it and those who don't.

[RANT] I am firmly in the camp of hit % should be about 50-60 at all levels. If it isn't then how are you supposed to be able to use level n-4 to n+7 mobs against the party? (I thought it was only n+4 until I was looking at the DMG yesterday and their encounter templates use n+5, n+6 and n+7). At n-4 your hit chance becomes about 70-80% and at n+7 your hit chance becomes roughly 15-25% - reasonable because the number or critters goes up or down with the hit chance. Without expertise those numbers start out OK at 1st level but at 30 they become 50 to 60% and -5 to 5%. That is broken math.[/RANT]

 

[Nail]

[RANT] I am firmly in the camp of hit % should be about 50-60 at all levels.

This is kind of off-topic, but: I agree.

"The PCs should hit equal level foes about 55% of the time, without taking into account combat advantage, conditions, and buffs."


IMO, you've fixed the "Expertise" math problem fine...and it's not why this particular PC is giving you conniptions.

 

[Lauberfen]

Agreed Expertise is irrelevant to this topic- you've taken a legitimate course, by all accounts, which should no real impact on the AC of your party. Even if they need tougher fights (as does any serious party in my experience, with or without expertise/a better fix), this should be done with more monsters close to level, rather than higher level monsters- if you look at the composition in the DMG, it's rare to have a fight where most of the opponents are much higher level than te party.

I think you've got a fair round of heplful tips- let us know when you've tried some of them out.

 

[CovertOps]

Definitely a lot of ideas to use. Unfortunately I only get to run my game once a month and it was last Saturday so it will be a while before I can get back to this with some results.

 

[Ryujin]

Nope.

The class feature would be even more deadly if he hadn't taken the hit to his attack roll. The sacrifice is there. (Plus he could have taken 3 feats to increase his damage, etc.)

Remember that the Avenger class is built to be a striker. Unlike Barbarian, Sorcerer, Ranger, Warlock, etc, the Avenger gets its "extra" damage from hitting more often. By lowering (a bit) his attack roll, he reduces his effectiveness.

Also remember that he gets that juicy double roll only if he's only got one enemy adjacent. The Avenger has At-Wills that help make that happen, but it's by no means guaranteed. Just get more enemies adjacent to him, then *don't* attack him....watch how effective he gets then.

Nope. You need a 13 Str and a 13 Con. (PC Builder would have caught that.) ...and that 13 Str is useless to the PC otherwise.

In other words let him toss out his Oath of Emnity on a target, then hit him with enemies that push or slide him away from that target. Suddenly he's just a sub-par fighter, with no one marked.