HELP! Avenger issue

[Ryujin]

Just as an aside, this player is contributing to the party hitting grindspace. If he isn't taking out a Striker's share of enemy, then the encounters are going to drag. Until recently I was finding this with my Feylock, which is undoubtedly the weakest of the Striker builds.

 

[Drakhar]

Truthfully if there is that much of a difference between the defenders and the 'squishy' targets AC they deserve to be beat on. You want your defenders to have an ac not all that far from the softer targets to make it much more viable to attack the defender instead of ignoring them. As far as the Avenger having high ac, I find it interesting that people complain about Avengers but not Swordmages, who have their Primary stat boosting AC as well as a class feature providing the same boost to AC as the Avenger.

 

[CubeKnight]

Truthfully if there is that much of a difference between the defenders and the 'squishy' targets AC they deserve to be beat on. You want your defenders to have an ac not all that far from the softer targets to make it much more viable to attack the defender instead of ignoring them. As far as the Avenger having high ac, I find it interesting that people complain about Avengers but not Swordmages, who have their Primary stat boosting AC as well as a class feature providing the same boost to AC as the Avenger.

But Swordmages are Defenders...

 

[Ryujin]

Truthfully if there is that much of a difference between the defenders and the 'squishy' targets AC they deserve to be beat on. You want your defenders to have an ac not all that far from the softer targets to make it much more viable to attack the defender instead of ignoring them. As far as the Avenger having high ac, I find it interesting that people complain about Avengers but not Swordmages, who have their Primary stat boosting AC as well as a class feature providing the same boost to AC as the Avenger.

The bonus is variable, depending upon the weapon that the Swordmage uses. Go two-handed and you lose two points of AC. It also drops if the Swordmage goes down.

 

[Drakhar]

The bonus is variable, depending upon the weapon that the Swordmage uses. Go two-handed and you lose two points of AC. It also drops if the Swordmage goes down.

Unless they're a deva in which case with 3 feats they get the +2 back from using a 2-hander, or +2 extra using a 1 hander, and it persists even if they drop, they also qualify for hide easier and as they have Intelligence as an attack stat they're likely to have a higher base AC before the warding is applied anyways.

As far as the Swordmage being a Defender and the Avenger a striker, the Avenger is a Striker/Defender who is based around going toe to toe with the big guy while the rest of the party deals with the rest of the enemies.

 

[Herschel]

Have you ever built & played a Swordmage for any length of time? Feats are a prescious commodity for them especially. There are VERY tough choices to be made.

 

[Nail]

Wildly off-topic, but: IME, Swordmages are quite difficult to build effectively. They just aren't an easy defender class to play....so I'm not sure the comparison to the Avenger class is useful.

 

[Drakhar]

Have you ever built & played a Swordmage for any length of time? Feats are a prescious commodity for them especially. There are VERY tough choices to be made.

This is hardly limited to Swordmages however, and it doesn't change the point honestly.

Wildly off-topic, but: IME, Swordmages are quite difficult to build effectively. They just aren't an easy defender class to play....so I'm not sure the comparison to the Avenger class is useful.

I agree comparing them doesn't accomplish much, and truthfully wasn't my intent, I was simply pointing out that it's hardly fair to complain that one class is overpowered because it is 'unhittable' when another class is equally as unhittable.

 

[brehobit]

My 2 cents, not having seen one played, is that getting ride of that bonus AC feat for avengers might well solve all the problems. It just isn't needed and gives a bit too much bang for the buck at higher levels.

Taking hide is just too much from a stats viewpoint, so anyone doing that is really going to suck. Getting rid of the feat gets them down to defender AC or maybe one less. That's fine (good, but certainly fine).

Mark

 

[CovertOps]

A few quick notes to clarify some issues brought up by other posters.

Party composition was as follows:
Paladin(STR), Swordmage(assault), Avenger(Censure of Retribution), Ranger(STR), Shaman, Warlord(tac?), FWIW I think the Avenger is a Deva.

The encounter in question I was really feeling the AC swing because I was using Gnolls which don't have any attacks vs. F/R/W.

So far I've liked the idea about making the rest of the party pay and ignore the defenders and Avenger. Have to be careful here not to meta-game the first round or two and go straight for the squishies (*exception - The BBEG is watching them move through his fortification so knows who to go after first when they arrive). I also like the idea of surround, but ignore the Avenger to nullify his 2 best abilities (2 die rolls to attack and power-up from the Censure).

This particular encounter was the last with the Gnolls and next they are moving on to a dragon cult. I think I'll steal the themed idea and give them an encounter power matching their "god". I'm thinking something that attacks Fort