HELP! Avenger issue

[Stalker0]

In 4e, it is so easy (and frankly I think expected) for groups of monsters to include a few guys that target nonAc defenses that I don't see it being too much of a problem. Though it definitely makes the hydra sad

 

[Herschel]

It seems to me the biggest bang for the buck for an Avenger is just taking leather armor. +2 AC (at least), one less feat, and no stat pre-reqs. The OP's player missed a trick, methinks.

This is my thought also, but Improved Armor of Faith is fine too.

 

[outsider]

I'm of the opinion that the AC Avenger is basically a trap for minmaxers. While AC is nice, it isn't an important tool to the Avenger's role. To get the high AC, he has to give up alot of his resources that should be dedicated to damage dealing.

Look at it this way. The player in question is clearly a minmaxer. If he wasn't maximizing his AC, he'd probably be maximizing something else. And that something else would probably be either to hit or damage. In my experience most DMs and players find offensive disparities to be FAR more problematic than defensive disparities. If you try to take away/neutralize his AC advantage, he'll likely switch to some other sort of advantage that you will find even more troublesome.

Minmaxers get their joy from increasing a stat to maximum. AC is one of the least harmful stats he could be maxing, so let him have his fun. If he was a powergamer rather than a min maxer, he'd probably have about 2 less points in AC with a signifigantly higher to hit/damage bonus, making him a FAR more effective striker, and a more powerful character overall. Frankly, the AC Avenger is a poor choice of character, designed to lure in a specific type of player.

 

[CovertOps]

I think I just need to "show" the Avengers player just how useful his high AC is about every other battle. I expect it will take about 2-3 encounters of being pummeled with 7's or even lower on the die to want to rework his character. I bet I can even just use LOTS of level n mobs. Maybe an encounter total of n+2 of level n mobs so I have about 8-9 mobs vs. the party of 5-6

 

[outsider]

I expect it will take about 2-3 encounters of being pummeled with 7's or even lower on the die to want to rework his character.

Coming from a powergamer, I don't think you really want this. His character isn't nearly as powerful as he thinks it is. If he redesigns it, it'll probably be signifigantly better offensively, potentially enough to start causing problems. When a minmaxer designs a character that isn't as powerful as he thinks it is, my solution is usually to let him keep believing it so he doesn't go back to the drawing board and make something that actually is powerful.

What problems are caused by his high AC specifically? I realise that it means you are having a hard time hitting him, but how much of a problem is that really? He has no way of encouraging enemies to attack him I'm sure, so he's not out defendering the defenders. It's highly likely that he's not outdamaging the strikers either with that build. What you've got is a minmaxer with a build that is inneffective at anything other than survival, and has no way to hog the spotlight from other players. If it were me, I'd just let him keep thinking that he's beaten the system.

 

[CovertOps]

Coming from a powergamer, I don't think you really want this. His character isn't nearly as powerful as he thinks it is. If he redesigns it, it'll probably be signifigantly better offensively, potentially enough to start causing problems. When a minmaxer designs a character that isn't as powerful as he thinks it is, my solution is usually to let him keep believing it so he doesn't go back to the drawing board and make something that actually is powerful.

What problems are caused by his high AC specifically? I realise that it means you are having a hard time hitting him, but how much of a problem is that really? He has no way of encouraging enemies to attack him I'm sure, so he's not out defendering the defenders. It's highly likely that he's not outdamaging the strikers either with that build. What you've got is a minmaxer with a build that is inneffective at anything other than survival, and has no way to hog the spotlight from other players. If it were me, I'd just let him keep thinking that he's beaten the system.

I don't necessarily "want" to do this, but I believe if I follow the process of intelligent monsters and start
a) ignoring him (and the defenders for that matter) with attacks vs. AC
b) start focusing on other more squishy targets
c) redirect F/R/W attacks to him (and the defenders - when there are mobs with those attack types present)
then I'm sure he will find he doesn't like his build for one of those reasons. Either he will dislike being hit so frequently by the F/R/W attacks, or he will dislike that he never gets to use his Censure of Retribution because I don't attack him with monsters other than his mark.

The player in question likes to hog the spotlight as much as possible. If I only use monsters that attack AC then he gets what he wants and I get 3 party members laying on the ground because I focused fire on them. My problem really is not so much that I can't hit him, but the other issues I'll have if I ignore him. I just need to knock him down a peg or two is all. Problem is if I do that he'll feel inferior again and probably want to redesign.

 

[Nail]

.....The player in question likes to hog the spotlight as much as possible....


..... I just need to knock him down a peg or two is all. Problem is if I do that he'll feel inferior again and probably want to redesign.

....Yeah.

IME, you don't want to "knock him down a peg". What you want is to have a fun game! Fixating on this PC is a distraction from the larger purpose, and will lead you down all sorts of dead-end alleys.

This thread has made it abundantly clear to you that this PC "ain't all that". You now know that. But it doesn't follow that you must make this player "know that". In fact, you probably want him to keep the character as is.

I'm sensing (and I think others are as well) that your problem isn't necessarily with this super AC avenger, but with the player himself. Often these sorts of problems can be worked out outside of the game, either in person or via email. You are all there to have fun and hang out with friends, right? If so, you *all* have a larger, common purpose.

 

[outsider]

The player in question likes to hog the spotlight as much as possible. If I only use monsters that attack AC then he gets what he wants and I get 3 party members laying on the ground because I focused fire on them.

I'm not sure what you are getting at here. Are you saying that you are forced to use monsters that can hit higher ACs, and this leads to the lower AC characters getting crushed? If that's the problem, my advice is don't bother bringing in monsters to beat his AC. You don't neccessarily have to do damage to every character in every fight.

Are you saying monsters don't bother attacking him because they can't hit him? There's two defenders in the group you described, they should be able to handle the heat. If anything, his high AC makes it a bit easier for the defenders to manage monster aggro.

Don't get tied up trying to beat this guy, because as soon as you do, he'll come in with something new that's just as bad if not worse. Has the "everybody dying but the Avenger" problem actually come up yet? That problem is very much under your control, and if it's happening frequently, odds are those situations would have been total party kills if it wasn't for the high AC. If you are just worried about it happening, don't be. Once it happens, just start scaling back your encounters a bit. The fatal flaw to his character is that he can't use his strength actively in any way. He can only dominate the game if -you- take down the rest of the party. Just don't do that, and he never gets the opportunity to hog the spotlight.

 

[Jack Colby]

He gave himself an advantage, and you need to punish him for it? Why not let him have his high AC and stop worrying that you can't hit him "enough"? That's what high ACs are for, and what makes him happy. Why must all PC abilities be equal, and similar hits/damage suffered by all?

 

[Meeble]

I hate to speak out of turn, but it almost sounds to me like you (and possibly other people at your table) have more of an issue with this particular player than just his maxed out AC.

If I'm right, getting to the root of that issue and resolving it will make for a more fun table in the long run.