Help bounce some ideas around for an OGL project

[Najo]

Ok, so I have a home brew system I am working on, but I keep hitting a wall in an area of game balance and could use some ideas on how to tackle this problem.

Here is the issue:

I want to have talent based character classes with 4e style powers. So as your leveling you get to customize your character's class features and selection of actions. But the tough part is balancing character creation and leveling, as players are selecting their powers and class features.

1. How would you balance players selecting combat vs. non-combat choices?

2. How would you balance players selecting active choice/action based powers vs. static bonuses/booster type class features?

3. How do you work these two needs all together without creating a mess and getting the Action based powers outside of the class (i.e. in lists like 3.5 spells)? What does the level/ class progression tables look like?

As an example: 4e uses class based powers as the actions, then splits them between attack and utility and offers those two power types at different levels. While most of the static effects are provided from feats.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

1. How would you balance players selecting combat vs. non-combat choices?

Ideally, every power could have both in combat and out of combat applications. This will not always be possible, though, so giving some of both is probably your best bet.

2. How would you balance players selecting active choice/action based powers vs. static bonuses/booster type class features?

Separating active and passive benefits into different kinds of abilities (powers / talents / feats / whatever) I think will be very important. You'll just have to determine at what rate you want to grant each sort of ability and spread them out amongst your levels.

3. How do you work these two needs all together without creating a mess and getting the Action based powers outside of the class (i.e. in lists like 3.5 spells)? What does the level/ class progression tables look like?

I think that cutting them into trees, as in d20 Modern or Star Wars Saga might be the best way to organize the differing abilities. I guess it kind of depends on how flexible you want your classes to be (i.e. can a fighter gain thief talents?) versus how structured you want them to be.

It might also be possible to have some abilities listed with their class (for those abilities that are exclusive to the class or will only benefit someone of a particular class) and others listed free-range (for abilities that can be taken by / will benefit everyone equally).

 

[Najo]

The trick is you can easily balance non-combat vs combat (i.e. attack powers vs utility powers slots) and you can easily balance active vs static (i.e. powers vs class features or feats). Where is gets tricky is having 3.5 class features or Star Wars style trees and then also have combat and non-combat powers outside of the classes.

How do you easily direct players to select such a mishmash of abilites?

 

[Michael Silverbane]

How do you easily direct players to select such a mishmash of abilites?

Hit them with a stick?

 

[Stacie GmrGrl]

Hit them with a stick?

Bribe them with unlimited pizza After you hit them with a stick...

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Ok, so I have a home brew system I am working on, but I keep hitting a wall in an area of game balance and could use some ideas on how to tackle this problem.

Here is the issue:

I want to have talent based character classes with 4e style powers. So as your leveling you get to customize your character's class features and selection of actions. But the tough part is balancing character creation and leveling, as players are selecting their powers and class features.

1. How would you balance players selecting combat vs. non-combat choices?

Your options:
a) Silos. Don't allow choices between combat and non-combat abilities.
b) Don't sweat it. If you want to sweat it a little, but not negate it: Define a baseline (maybe even split) and allow the PCs and DM to figure out how far they are off from it with their PC.
c) ???

2. How would you balance players selecting active choice/action based powers vs. static bonuses/booster type class features?

a) Static bonuses are a little like At-Will Powers. So ensure that the static bonuses don't pile up too much, and consider a static ability improving some aspect as using the equivalent of an at-will power. A little better than the "basic" attack. Trick is to avoid too much stacking. Probably the best to avoid stacking entirely.

b) Another way is, again - create a baseline. If you assume the characters will run through 2 combat and 2 skill/social/roleplaying/puzzle challenges per day, and each consists of 10 "rounds" (e.g. options for the PCs to act/use an ability), an ability that gives +1 to an attack gives a 5 % bonus for 20 rounds of combats described in your baseline. This means 5 % more damage, each round. Over 20 rounds, that's basically one round worth of extra damage. So an "encounter" power needs to deal 50 % more extra damage under the baseline.
Warning: Especially this baseline can become problematic, since it might constrain adventure design and flexibility if people want to stay balanced. if there are actually 4 combats per day, the constant benefit was better, if there's only 1 5 round combat per day, the encounter power is better.

3. How do you work these two needs all together without creating a mess and getting the Action based powers outside of the class (i.e. in lists like 3.5 spells)? What does the level/ class progression tables look like?

As an example: 4e uses class based powers as the actions, then splits them between attack and utility and offers those two power types at different levels. While most of the static effects are provided from feats.

The 4E progression table is basically lacking some entries that come from class, paragon path and epic destiny. See:
Level 1: Class Feature
Level 11: Paragon Path Action Point Feature, Paragon Path Feature I
Level 16: Paragon Path Feature II
Level 21: Epic Destiny Feature I
Level 24: Epic Destiny Feature II
Level 30: Epic Destiny Feature III
You could try to normalize this progression a little and add more for the first 10 levels, for example grant Class Feature at Level 1, 4, 8, 11, 14, 18, 21, 24 and 28. Essentially when characters gain a new ability score point in 4E.

 

[JohnSnow]

I kicked this around a little bit myself, mostly as a thought experiment. You can get a certain amount of insight into it (without entirely answering the question) by looking back at 3e, Star Wars Saga, and d20 Modern in addition to 4e.

Firstly, recognize that many 3e class features were turned into Talents in other systems. Many things that were feats right up through Star Wars Saga Edition were turned into powers come 4e (like Cleave). And some class features (or talents) were even "downgraded" to feats (like Evasion). And that's before you get into Skill Powers and other things. So sorting it out is something of a holy mess.

The basic rule in 4e seems to be that feats enhance or alter class features (including powers), whereas powers actually give you new options. Even the Skill Power feat doesn't break this as, IIRC, it allows you to replace one of your existing utility powers. The sole exception is the Hybrid Talent feat, which lets you pick up a class feature you didn't previously have. Talent trees were a nice idea, but they're basically a way of leveling powers without saying specifically "this ability is appropriate come 9th level." So while I like the Talent system, I find it clunky next to powers. Explicit levels make way more sense as a way of balancing than feat trees.

On the other hand, if you want to give characters more options, you could make all powers things you get via talents. You start with your at-wills and gain other powers by spending a talent. If you silo them into combat and utility options, you've still got basically the 4e system. You can turn talents into utility powers or feats, depending on what they do.

Alternatively, you can eliminate the utility powers and just turn them all into talents. Then talent trees replace the utility powers in the character's options deck. But some of the powers (like any "daily" utilities) would probably have to be downgraded in order for that to work.

 

[MortonStromgal]

I would look at Ubiquity (system behind Hollowed Earth Expedition and Desolation). While they do have attributes and skills its more or less a feat tree for all your special stuff be it social, physical or mental. The thing I love is I can make a charismatic fighter and be effective in both combat and social situations.