D&D 4E Help, I’m a Terrible (4E) DM

[Retreater]

Help, I’m a Terrible (4E) DM

I used to think I was a pretty good DM with 2nd edition, 3.x, and Pathfinder. The games and their maths made sense to me. I could look at a monster, size up its AC, hp, and damage expressions, and basically determine if it would be a challenge to a group of 4-6 PCs of a certain level.
That has all gone out the window with 4E. I can’t create a decent challenge or even run a pre-scripted module following the tactical advice in a way that is a) fun for me and the players and b) of moderate challenge.
Players are consistently denying actions to my monsters, sliding them around and knocking them prone like the Three Stooges. I can’t threaten “squishy” targets at all due to marks, auras, etc., from the defenders. It’s rare that I ever do enough damage to bloody even a single PC in a fight. I up the number of monsters and even fudge die rolls to give myself a fighting chance. I had only a single PC fatality in the most recent Lair Assault – and it was everyone’s first run through.
I’m not saying I want to be a Killer DM, but I would like that the players feel threatened and challenged and aren’t getting bored with the game.
It's so frustrating that I am handing over the reins to other players to DM - even though they have never run a game.

Anyone else experiencing this? Any ideas? Should I just go back to DMing the systems I understand?

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Hm, do your monsters follow the New Math? There are other ways to recover from easy-DM syndrome, but low damage is a common cause.

 

[Arctic Wolf]

I have recently had some problems with a dracolich I was running awhile ago, which were mostly my fault but it really did feel like a grind. Anyways a few things I would suggest doing are possibly:

*halving hp of some monsters and doubling dmg, there are numerous threads here so prolly best to look it up

*have some sort of leader enemy that allows it's allies to make a saving throw or cancel a form of control once per round so it doesn't seem like they are locked down too much

*make the terrain something that will mostly work in the enemies favor

* lastly, possibly allow enemies that are dying next to PCs make a "final strike" attack so they will get injured

These are some solutions I have thought up of but I sure there are many more so don't give up and keep on trying

 

[Dice4Hire]

Well, I do not know what is going on at your table, but if the DM lets the players play the way they want to, then the players will win. The trick is to not let them play the way they want to every fight.

In a fight I had earlier in 4E, I had a room with teleport pillars, which the defender was trying to use or abuse, depending on your perspective. He would mark multiple enemies and then teleport all the way across the battlefield, expecting the enemies (minion skeletons) to automatically go for him as they were marked.

The -2 to hit cause a few skeletons to miss the squishy targets he was leaving alone, but not many.

If you want to play a mark is an auto attack on the defender, that is fine, but I usually do not do that. Sometimes taking a hit is the correct play fora monster, especially the smarter ones. Dumb ones tend to just attack the nearest enemy.

But my advice is to not let the players play the fight wholly their own way. Throw in curveballs. But be sure to make them totally 'in character' for he location and monsters.

 

[Quickleaf]

I used to think I was a pretty good DM with 2nd edition, 3.x, and Pathfinder. The games and their maths made sense to me. I could look at a monster, size up its AC, hp, and damage expressions, and basically determine if it would be a challenge to a group of 4-6 PCs of a certain level.
That has all gone out the window with 4E. I can’t create a decent challenge or even run a pre-scripted module following the tactical advice in a way that is a) fun for me and the players and b) of moderate challenge.

Well don't worry, most of the modules are poorly written. Joking aside...

Players are consistently denying actions to my monsters, sliding them around and knocking them prone like the Three Stooges.

What is your party composition? Are there an inordinate number of controller types?

I don't see forced movement/prone as problems, unless you take thematic issue with medium-sized PCs knocking down a giant.

Action denial is a major issue for elites and, especially, solos. The more recent monster design since MM3 has improved this somewhat, but you may need to tweak your monsters to keep pace, especially for higher-level monsters. I can offer some links & ideas if that's useful to you.

Btw, what level are you playing at?

I can’t threaten “squishy” targets at all due to marks, auras, etc., from the defenders.

A defender can only defend what they can see. Try introducing waves of monsters from a new direction of the battlefield on the second, third, or fourth round once the defenders are already in the thick of things. Like, say, a rear assault from a couple lurkers or skirmishers.

A defender can only defend against what they can hit. Introduce a bunch of minion artillery that can't be engaged in melee right away, for example they're elevated on a castle wall. Then have them focus fire on squishies. I guarantee your players will be sweating.

It’s rare that I ever do enough damage to bloody even a single PC in a fight.

This could be due to any number of reasons, but I'd need more info about the particulars first.

[MENTION=40398]Tequila Sunrise[/MENTION] already asked the most important question about monster math.

I up the number of monsters and even fudge die rolls to give myself a fighting chance.

Ok, what about the scenario setup? Are you providing predictable combat scenarios which allow the PCs to exploit choke points time after time? Or are you providing dynamic battlefields with dangerous terrain?

Unlike previous editions, 4e places a big emphasis on terrain. Unfortunately, the books don't do a good job of providing more examples or guidelines for creating your own. +1 for making terrain important. -1 for follow-thru.

I had only a single PC fatality in the most recent Lair Assault – and it was everyone’s first run through.

Hmm, you're running Lair Assault? Is that your normal reference point for 4e or just something special you do on the side?

I’m not saying I want to be a Killer DM, but I would like that the players feel threatened and challenged and aren’t getting bored with the game.
It's so frustrating that I am handing over the reins to other players to DM - even though they have never run a game.

Don't panic Are you saying the rest of the group is bored, or just you? Or all of you? I just want to confirm that this issue is indeed of the same magnitude for the entire group.

 

[Rechan]

a) fun for me and the players and b) of moderate challenge.

Are you certain that your players aren't having fun? Most players really enjoy tearing monsters apart. They may not be fearing for their characters lives, but are they bored? Boredom is the enemy here. Fun is the goal here. If they're not bored, and they're having fun, than the "challenge" doesn't really matter.

Last time I played it was as a leader, and "threat/challenge" wasn't what thrilled me. I was satisfied by the most strategic use of my powers to pull my party's fat out of the fire. They'd have died twenty times over had I not used the perfect power at the right moment, had I not juggled my actions just so. I loved seeing enemies with interesting/new abilities and hated seeing boring monsters or the same types of enemies over and over (in this case, goblins). Also, getting the occasional kill shot made me feel like a king. The only things that scared me were carrion crawlers and lots of spread out enemies with ranged attacks (since they could hit anyone and shave off damage).

Also your issue may very well be your outlook on "what is challenging". I really think you would benefit from reading this.

Players are consistently denying actions to my monsters, sliding them around and knocking them prone like the Three Stooges. ... I can’t threaten “squishy” targets at all due to marks, auras, etc., from the defenders. It’s rare that I ever do enough damage to bloody even a single PC in a fight

4e PCs are very durable. They are hard to kill, period. I've only managed to kill 1 (and that was a high damage power that hit a guy at single digit hp). I played in a game for 10 levels and only saw 1 death (again, Pc was at low HP and got hit by serious damage). Otherwise, they bounce up very quickly from bleeding on the floor.

They are also very potent. Controllers are supposed to shove around and knock down enemies. Defenders are supposed to lock down your enemies. That's what they're designed to do. Monsters usually get waxed before getting to whip out their cool stuff.

In my experience, 4e fights go one of three ways:

1) Players blow through the encounter, but it just takes time.

2) It's tough, and at the middle there's some tension/it looks hard, but then there's a moment of "aha", it swings hard into the player's favor, and then it becomes just mopping up the enemies.

3) It's a real squeaker, where everyone almost died.

#3 is very rare and hard to reproduce. Usually it's a perfect storm of hot dice on the DM's part, a weird synergy of powers/rules, some bad decisions or cold ice on the PCs' part, and tough opposition.

So what should you do?

Remember that your monsters don't have to do incredible damage, kill PCs, or even be very effective to challenge/threaten the players. Why? Because what's important is the illusion of threat. Your goal is to make them feel that way. For instance, if a non-defender PC gets surrounded, he is going to feel threatened/in danger, and the pressure is on for the group to save his bacon. If a PC is getting dragged away, same deal. If something scary pops out in the middle of a fight, right in a PC's face, same deal. If a second wave of monsters arrive in the middle of a fight, same deal. Stop threatening the PCs stats, start threatening their expectations.

Accept that your players are going to shove your guys around, lock them down, focus fire, beat the crap out of them. Once you accept that, start thinking about how to get beyond it.

For instance, attack the squishies at all costs. The defender gets off a potshot of a few damage - so? The wizard still gets shot in the face. Remember, the defender can only use his defensive ability once per round (except Essentials defenders) so any attacks after the first is free. Focus fire - several monsters attack one PC. Send a few monsters to tie the defender up while the rest go gunning for someone else (a soldier who charges the fighter is a good way to start).

Waves. Have half or 2/3rds of your monsters in the room at the start of the combat, and have the rest show up 2-3 rounds later. Your PCs have already used some of their encounter powers, they're confident, and suddenly BOOM, monsters with fresh abilities and full HP arrive. This goes double for Lurkers - lurkers can remain hidden until they pop out. So, have them hang back a few rounds, then pop out and eat the controller's face. Suddenly the focus of the battle is to get that guy off the wizard.

Next, analyze your players' powers and choose monsters/tactics accordingly. Do they have lots of dazes/stuns? Well you're boned. Dazing/stunning is nasty. There are a few monsters who can shrug off dazes/stuns.

I had only a single PC fatality in the most recent Lair Assault – and it was everyone’s first run through.

Ok hold on there. Lair Assault is for powergamers. Seriously. It is designed for people who have mastery of the system - you're supposed to play it multiple times, learning to build your character for the fight. Thus Lair Assault is supposed to draw the most powerful players who can cancel all the threats. It's a competitive module and you really shouldn't use it as any sort of benchmark to access your skill.

 

[Vaslov]

Retreater, has the exact same feeling when I started DMing 4e. Some great advice in the posts above which helped me as well.

The one thing to keep in mind is in 4e your players can take a lot more of a beating than in any other D&D edition. The higher the level them more truth there is to this. Don't be afraid to push what you perceive the limit to be. Take off the gloves and see what they can take. Make the battles more epic in scope with numbers to get by their battlefield control. Use controllers & leaders in the enemy groups. Push the PCS. The players in my game loved the challenge.

I did finally find my footing after several games and I am sure you will as well. There are still limits. 4e is a different animal so experiment.

 

[Retreater]

Let's see. The Stooges comment was in regards to Lair Assault - The Talon of Umberlee. The characters were 8th level. The sliding was caused by a controller and a leader working in tandem. What hurt about that experience was that the monsters were a joke in Lair Assault, which is supposed to be balls-to-the-wall. I was expecting that the characters would be optimized, and that optimization would be required to barely survive Lair Assault. Instead, they kicked its butt.

My normal campaign is a weekly game in Gardmore Abbey. The players waltz through the encounters, bragging about how they didn't get hit a single time. This is fine; from time to time it's cool to feel like a butt kicker. But it's also kind of worrisome to me that the encounters feel like a walk in the park - that there's no real danger. I know that butt kicking will be exciting for only so long.

As DM, after I see that my monsters are just swinging at the air, unable to hit the defender except on a Natural 20 and even then just taking off a measly 10% of his hp, I'm prone to want to pack up, forget about the whole thing, and grab a beer. Particularly when the players are high-fiving and making fun of the ineptitude of the challenge.

Oh, and I am using the "new math" exclusively. All other monster resources have been safely locked away.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Only hitting on a natural 20? Using the new math? Something else then is mechanically wrong. You should be hitting on an 11-13, maybe a 15 at worst for the crappiest monster.

 

[On Puget Sound]

As DM, after I see that my monsters are just swinging at the air, unable to hit the defender except on a Natural 20 and even then just taking off a measly 10% of his hp,

Something is wrong. Either your defender has mis-figured his AC (are character sheets built using Character Builder, or by hand?), or someone has secretly replaced your d20s with d12s and you haven't noticed yet. Do the characters have magic armor vastly above their level? Did they roll their stats instead of point-buy, and get really lucky? I promise you, if the above statement is true you are not using something correctly.