Help me calculate ECL for my group?

[schnee]

I'm a new DM, running a high-level game. (Yeah, I know, but I'm a glutton for punishment.) I'd like some advice on how to balance encounters.

It's a party of five characters (Level 14) and one cohort (Level 11) built for a one-shot. Core and Forgotten Realms books. 32-point buy. ~120,000gp in personal wealth; max cost for any single item was ~50,000gp. I let them buy what they wanted, so there are a lot of Cloaks of Protection, Amulets of Natural Armor and stat buffs... so, saves and AC are very, very high. (It's OK, they're about to enter the Tomb of Horrors, so they're gonna die anyway. )

So, here's my quandry. I threw an ECL 16 at 'em (one 14th level power-attacking greatsword Fighter + five 7ECL Dark Nagas buffed to the gills, attacking from surprise) and the combat was over in two rounds. I chalk a lot of it up to the Red Wizard blowing his wad (Simbul's Spell Matrix + two 7th level spells is an impressive thing) but... still... wow. It was much less of a challenge than I thought it would be.

This has repeated with several other encounters. One notable one was two Iron Golems... it took a while, but it was a foregone conclusion. They were never in any real danger.

I want to have at least one big battle challenge 'em, but not kill 'em. The mechanic of 'bigger parties get the XP divided differently so that balances it' leaves me a bit empty-handed... I want some more solid guidelines or rules of thumb, rather than 'oh bump it up a few more ECL - whoops, TPK!'

Any suggestions on how to appropriately crank up the ECL to match their power level? Also, if an enemy is prepared for them (has several rounds to buff, attack with surprise) how much would that up the ECL at this level?

Any and all advice is welcomed. I'm prepping for a Friday game tomorrow, so... help?

 

[mmu1]

This isn't a way of increasing ECL as such... But are you using enough enemy spellcasters? Magic is key at high levels, if you're using mainly melee opponents, you're always going to be stuck with the "Too easy... Too easy... Oops, dead party." problem.

Another thing to try is encounters in rapid succession - use one to let the players "blow their wad", then hit them with something else before they have the time to prepare.

A couple of targeted Dispel Magic or Greater Dispels can also do wonders for compeltely screwing up the battle plan of a high-level buffed-up party.

 

[Silveras]

First, terms

ECL = Equivalent Character Level, a measure of how strong a PC is.
EL = Encounter Level, a measure of how dangerous/how much treasure an encounter is.
CR = Challenge Rating, the approximate measure of how dangerous a foe is to the standard 4 PC party (I say approximate because a lot of the CRs are "guesstimates", and prove too low or too high depending on the campaign).
LA = Level Adjustment, how many "character levels" the special abilities of a creature are "worth" when treating it as a PC and figuring its ECL.

Next, numbers
More creatures is more effective than more levels, so a party of 5 Level 14 PCs + 1 Level 11 Cohort is stronger than a party of 4 Level 16 PCs. There are no formulas, but I would guess that Encounters/Creatures suitable for level 16 or 17 would be about right for "normal" encounters, and 18 about right for the "major" encounters you want to stand out.

Advice:
When designing encounters, remember that the reason the XP table gives no XP for creatures whose CR is more than 8 lower than the party's level is because such creatures pose no real threat. The saves against their abilities are so easy the PCs almost can't fail, and the creatures almost can't make their saves against the PCs' abilities/spells.

The most effective threat to throw against a well-prepared party is another well-prepared party.

 

[schnee]

First, terms

Heh. Believe it or not, I meant CR/EL/etc... I blame my dyslexia...

Also, thanks for the specific numbers and tips.

 

[Gizzard]

I threw an ECL 16 at 'em (one 14th level power-attacking greatsword Fighter + five 7ECL Dark Nagas buffed to the gills, attacking from surprise) and the combat was over in two rounds.

I'm finding a similar thing with 6 high-stat, high-item 12th level PCs. EL16-17 is a good fight for them instead of the TPK it should be by standard power measures. And tough fights are less scary at 12th level where there are Teleports, Words of Recall and Abundant Steps to get out if things go wrong.

One thing you mentioned (and that I noticed in my group) is that if the Wizards unload their high level spells on something, it's pretty sure to die. So I begin to think that an interesting adventure has to have some sort of time pressure (or other mechanism) so that the party cannot default to using Disintigrate over and over; so that they have to try and ration their best spells and use them wisely. Time pressure means that the party doesn't have time to rest up after every adventure; I guess it's self-evident that the party's ECL goes down as they use up their spells and HPs -- so rather than make the monsters stronger, make the PCs fight when they are weaker.

 

[Oscar carramiñana]

Agree with Silveras
I do the same a lot of times.
Fatigue the Cle & Wiz making waste their spells with several encounters.
If your party Pc's are prepared, ambush them after with another prepared party.

 

[Thanee]

Geared up 3rd edition chars are easily 4 levels above their respective ECL in terms of fighting power.

Also, single opponents, unless they are incredibly tough, are often a lower challenge, compared to multiple slightly weaker opponents (i.e. 2 level 14 wizards are much, much more difficult than one level 16 wizard). Of course, at some point this breaks and opponents become too whimpy to be considered a real threat.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Silveras]

Heh. Believe it or not, I meant CR/EL/etc... I blame my dyslexia...

Also, thanks for the specific numbers and tips.

No problem; I just see so many people confused by the various acronyms that I have to try to set it straight whenever I see them mashed into each other.

On another note ...
Remember that an encounter "matched" to your party's power isn't meant to be a big obstacle. An encounter of 1 creature whose individual CR is matched to the average level of a 4-person party is only "meant" to use up a few spells and/or charges on magic items (20% of the party's resources). If your present party is approximately as strong as a 4-member Level 18 party, an EL 18 Encounter (4 CR 14 creatures) is still only expected to use up 20% or so of their resources (a few spells, some charges or expendable items, etc.).

Also, it sounds like you started the characters at high level; that skews things, too. Feat selections, for example, are always optimal. Since the PC did not have to survive from level 1 to level 11 (or whatever level you started at), s/he never needed to take Toughness to offset a bad hp roll, or never looked at some of those +2/+2 skill feats because s/he had spells or items that gave a bigger bonus anyway.

Speaking of items, letting them buy whatever they wanted with their starting wealth also "ups the ante". A character played over the long-term to those levels has some less-than-optimal items as part of his/her wealth. A wand of magic missile that has 4-5 charges left, for example, or a dozen scrolls at low caster level hanging around (some might have sold them, but many would keep them "just in case"). Example: A Sorcerer might have a wand of sleep that s/he gained at 2nd level and has used since. Why bother wasting a precious rare "known spell" slot on something you have in an item ? A character made at high level typically doesn't have "legacy" gear ... just the best stuff s/he could afford, all tweaked and tuned for whatever spells or feats s/he has now. A Sorcerer made at these levels may have started with a powerful staff instead of having 3-4 wands, 5-6 potions, and 12-15 scrolls.

The result, though, is that generally characters created at high levels tend to be "tuned and optimized" that way, and, as Thanee mentioned, it makes them more powerful than their levels would indicate.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Any and all advice is welcomed. I'm prepping for a Friday game tomorrow, so... help?

Well, I'm a bit late to help you, but here's my advice anyway.

I'm using Upper_Krust's CR/EL system to answer, by the way. (See his various threads in the House Rules forum). Rather than force you to convert or use a new system, I simply used his system to find the correct party EL and then back-tracked through his system to match up some foes of equivalent EL.

First, more terminology for you. A moderate encounter is one which the PCs are supposed to win, by expending about 25% of their resources. That means the spellcasters will expend some good spells, and fighters can be expected to lose about 25% of their hit points, etc. The party will prevail against a moderate encounter 87.5% of the time. The core rules assume that a party will face about 13 of such "moderate" encounters before leveling up.

A difficult encounter uses 50% of the party's resources; they have a 75% success rate.

A very difficult encounter uses 100% of the party's resources, and they have a 50% success rate. Another way of looking at this encounter is that it is "evenly matched"-- so evenly matched that you could almost flip a coin! This is TPK territory, but a smart or prepared party has a small edge.

Finally, I'm going to assume that your party has equipment/wealth appropriate for their level (i.e., you didn't give anyone any extra wealth to kit out with magic items).

Moderate Encounters
1x CR14 creature
2x CR12 creatures
3x CR10 creatures
4-5 CR8 creatures

Difficult Encounters
2x CR16 creatures
3x CR14 creatures
4-5 CR12 creatures
6-7 CR10 creatures
8-11 CR8 creatures

Very Difficult Encounters
4-5 CR16 creatures
6-7 CR14 creatures
8-11 CR12 creatures
12-15 CR10 creatures

I am sure you can see the mathematical progression there... Hope it helps!

Wulf

 

[schnee]

Wow, this is all good stuff. Thanks!