Help Me Evaluate this Magiked-Up Bolt

[Infinite_Kydeem]

One of my players combined some unique ideas (at least I have'nt heard of them being used like this) into a potentially powerful item. {Developed specifically for dragon hunting if you're interested.}

Paid a dwarf master weaponsmith to make a humongous crossbow bolt out of Adamantine (sp?). Sized such that the Shrink Item spell will make it usable as a repeating crossbow bolt. Guessing approximately the size/mass of a long spear or heavy lance (since I don't have specific dimensions on a bolt).

Paid a moderately high level wizard to enchant it as a +2 magic weapon (not as single use ammunition), cast Shrink Item, and cast Permanency (on the Shrink Item spell) on the bolt.

Now as I read the spells, when the bolt hits something (at crossbow bolt speeds virtually anything should count as a hard surface) it will instantly enlarge to its natural size. We now have a massive bolt-shaped object traveling at the speed of a repeating crossbow bolt at the time it impacts the target.

Questions:
1) Any reason it won't work as the player desires?

2) How much damage do you think it should do? We used 8d8 the first time around, but that was just my first guess. :\

3) This is the item of most interest to the player. He had it made of Adamantine and magiced so it would potentially be reusable (spell description says can be re-shrunk by original caster because of Permanency spell). But I haven't been able to make up my mind. Could even an enchanted adamntine rod survive impact at that velocity? What kind of percentage chance would you give to this? It's not like a small wooden bolt that can be snapped of as the dragon brushed up against a wall.

4) If it doesn't survive in perfect condition, would it be just bent up a bit or completely ruined? If it's not totally destroyed, isn't there a spell that can repair partially damaged magic items?

5) If nothing else, I thought he should be able to recover the expensive metal used. But I read somewhere else (can't find it now, but still looking) that adamantine can't be recycled. The proccess of forging it is a one time thing. Is that right?

I'm really not worried about it being to powerfull, he had to pay a small fortune for a (possibly) one use item (at least until he can get it re-paired and/or re-shrunk) which will then be difficult to retreive and take back to base. What, if any, are you're opinions?

 

[darthkilmor]

Shrink Item doesnt work on magical items, and, the player has to be the one to cast Shrink Item.

For the original size of the crossbow bolt, lessee, 4 size increases(L-H-G-C). So I think what he wants to do is "in effect" be shooting a Colossal sized crossbow bolt. (a 1.6 pound bolt, fairly good size) from a medium sized crossbow.
So the dmg on that is...6d8 I believe.

The big Q though is how the shrink spell is going to work with the item increasing in size. You could just rule that he still does 1d10 dmg since the bolt doesnt increase in size till After it hits the target, but maybe that increase deals an extra 1d10 from the bolt growing while in someone.

I wouldnt give the 6d8 dmg simply because the bolt doesnt have to force behind it that a colossal crossbow would be imparting.

 

[ElectricDragon]

By my estimation, such a weapon would cost 51,500 gp (+16 or 32 gp depending, see below) [3000 gp for adamantine weapon x16 for colossal size, -300x15 for extra masterwork costs, +8000 for enchanting to +2, +16 or 32 depending on light or heavy repeating crossbow] plus 3549 XP [1500 for permanency, 2049 for weapon and enhancement].

None of this includes the cost of having Shrink Item and Permanency cast on the weapon, which would be another 700 gp plus 7500 gp for XP expenditures (i.e. not usually available).

If from a light repeating crossbow, such a weapon would deal 4d6 damage (short spear or d6 raised to colossal size, +4 size categories).
If from a heavy repeating crossbow, such a weapon would deal 6d6 damage (spear or d8 raised to colossal size, +4 size categories).

At such a cost, I would have no problem letting the bolt be retrievable unharmed. Killing the target would become necessary for retrieval unless the bolt missed; and the damage doesn't look all that dangerous to a dragon (given the amount the character spent, old dragons would most likely be the youngest targets). The problem I see is the weapon's use against ogres and other less hp handy folks. As DM, though, make re-shrinking it cost several thousand gp each time to restrict its usage to appropriate monsters.

Ciao
Dave

 

[ElectricDragon]

Ah, forgot the shrink item doesn't work on magic items. This would require extra cost to research a higher level variant that does. Probably about 5th-6th level.

Ciao
Dave

 

[Infinite_Kydeem]

Shrink Item doesnt work on magical items...

DOH!!! I missed that. I don't think it said that in the 3.0 version.

...the player has to be the one to cast Shrink Item...

Why?

...4 size increases... a Colossal sized crossbow bolt... 6d8 I believe...how the shrink spell is going to work with the item increasing in size... maybe that increase deals an extra 1d10 from the bolt growing while in someone... I wouldnt give the 6d8 dmg simply because the bolt doesnt have to force behind it that a colossal crossbow would be imparting.

Well my reasoning (for what it's worth) is the spell reads as if it is 'instantly' increasing at the time of impact not at some point after penetration. And unless we're going to try and apply the real world physical laws of conservation of momentum and energy to magical transformations (which would be very hard to work out): It would be moving at the speed of a normal light crossbow bolt and suddenly have 4000 times the mass and energy. Which would probably be even more powerful than a colossal crossbow. That was my thoughts anyway, feel free to disagree.

 

[Bad Paper]

Why?

Because of the text of the spell

tossing them onto any solid surface or by a word of command from the original caster

The person firing it/speaking the word must be the original caster. I would not equate "firing a crossbow bolt" with "tossing onto any solid surface." No.

 

[starwed]

Also, keep in mind the following from the Enlarge Person spell:

Any enlarged item that leaves an enlarged creature’s possession (including a projectile or thrown weapon) instantly returns to its normal size. This means that thrown weapons deal their normal damage, and projectiles deal damage based on the size of the weapon that fired them. Magical properties of enlarged items are not increased by this spell.

In other words, the size of the bolt doesn't matter, it's the size of the crossbow. It's completely illogical that thrown weapons are treated differantly, but those are the RAW.

Paid a moderately high level wizard to enchant it as a +2 magic weapon (not as single use ammunition), cast Shrink Item, and cast Permanency (on the Shrink Item spell) on the bolt.

Assuming you houserule that, yes, the size of the projectile does matter, what's the point of this? Why not just cast shrink item on a normal bolt, and then use a magic crossbow? That avoids the issue of the bolt being a magic item, and is cheaper in any case. Also, shrink item already has a duration of 1 day/level, so it's likely that repeat castings will be cheaper than using permanency.

For what it's worth, using Shrink Item to turn boulders into pebbles and throwing them at your foe is a time honored use of the spell stretching back at least 2 editions. ^_^ Note that the long duration means you could prepare tons of the things before a dungeon crawl. As a DM, the easiest way out of this situation is to just say that energy is conserved, so the damage will never change. (In other words, a small pebble moving quickly through the air will become a large boulder moving slowly through the air. There are still plenty of creative uses here, but it cuts out a lot of the direct combat cheeze.)

 

[Infinite_Kydeem]

...I would not equate "firing a crossbow bolt" with "tossing onto any solid surface." No.

I would agree firing the bolt would not be the same as 'tossing onto any solid surface.' But at the speed a crossbow bolt flies, I would say the impact when striking almost anything (except maybe whip cream) would be at least equal to a solid surface. Certainly a shield or metal armor would and dragon scales are about as solid as it gets. At least IMO. {shrug}

 

[IcyCool]

Ah, the old "shooting a ballista bolt as a crossbow bolt" trick that a fellow in my 2e group used.

It won't work in 3.5 for the reason given above (damage is based on the weapon doing the shooting, not the projectile), and also, ammunition that hits its target is automatically destroyed (whether it is made from adamantine or not). However, have your player take a look at the Collision weapon enchantment from the XPH, that might be an acceptable compromise. Or, if you don't really care about the rules too much, you could treat it as a mentioned above, and treat the bolt as if it were fired by an equivalent sized crossbow.

 

[Infinite_Kydeem]

Also, keep in mind the following from the Enlarge Person spell... the size of the bolt doesn't matter, it's the size of the crossbow. It's completely illogical that thrown weapons are treated differantly, but those are the RAW...

I guess we didn't see it as the same case as enlarge person. It doesn't change back as it leaves, it changes back on impact. So it would be flying through the air at least somewhere in the ballpark of the same speed as a colossal crossbow firing a colossal bolt. {I don't know if projectile velocity should go up or down when the crossbow is a larger size. Any hunting enthusiats out there that might know?}

... what's the point of this? Why not just cast shrink item on a normal bolt, and then use a magic crossbow? That avoids the issue of the bolt being a magic item, and is cheaper in any case. Also, shrink item already has a duration of 1 day/level, so it's likely that repeat castings will be cheaper than using permanency...

The wizard is not in the group. Group travels long distances often. In this case hunting a specific dragon that took them just over a week to even get into the dragon's territory. Then they would still have to locate it. {Actually they got a lucky guess and found the lair entrance in one day even though well hidden.}

... using Shrink Item to turn boulders into pebbles and throwing them at your foe is a time honored use of the spell stretching back at least 2 editions...

I think that's where the kernal of the concept came from.

...that the long duration means you could prepare tons of the things before a dungeon crawl...

If he can't recover them, that's what he'll probably do in the future.

...As a DM, the easiest way out of this situation is to just say that energy is conserved, so the damage will never change. (In other words, a small pebble moving quickly through the air will become a large boulder moving slowly through the air)...

If you're going to try using conservation of momentum (which is what it sounds like you're saying). Then it is perfectly legite to say you should use conservation of energy also. And you can't do both with something that instantly changes mass on impact. Well - I suppose - technically - you could, if you say the person shooting the crossbow suddenly flies backward when the bolt hits. But while ammusing, that doesn't seem very fair to the shooter. Besides there are a huge number of spells that would have to be reworked if we're going to try and impose physics on magic.