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Help me grock the warlock
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<blockquote data-quote="theNater" data-source="post: 4406034" data-attributes="member: 62560"><p>Okay, let's run the numbers again. We will ignore magical gear and the Weapon Focus type feats, assuming that both characters will get identical bonuses from them. Working with characters before level 4, so I don't have to worry about attribute increases.</p><p></p><p>Warlock with 20 con:</p><p>A)Hellish Rebuke with both hits and curse does 3d6+10 damage. Average: 20.5</p><p></p><p>B)Hellish Rebuke with only one hit and curse does 2d6+5 damage. Average: 12</p><p></p><p>Rogue with 18 dex, 18 cha:</p><p>A)Sly Flourish with rapier, Sneak Attack, and Backstabber does 3d8+8 damage. Average: 21.5</p><p></p><p>B)Sly Flourish with rapier and Backstabber does 1d8+8 damage. Average: 12.5</p><p></p><p>At this point, the rogue is ahead by one point of damage per hit if the enemy is cooperative, half a point if the enemy is uncooperative. This is not a gamebreakingly horrific damage advantage, and it is not without cost to the rogue. The reason we hear that the rogue is leaving the warlock in the dust is that people keep comparing warlock B to rogue A.</p><p></p><p>The rogue has spent two feats to reach this slight advantage. The warlock can use those feats for things like Defensive Mobility, which couples with temporary hit points and last round's Shadow Walk to make walking around and/or firing in melee a reasonably safe proposition. Defensive Mobility, Improved Initiative, Quick Draw, and Toughness are just a few of the feats that both rogues and warlocks will find tempting. The warlock can be collecting these while the rogue is struggling to get ahead.</p><p></p><p>The rogue has options, of course. If the feat cost is too much, the rapier can be replaced with a crossbow, making it more difficult to safely get combat advantage and eating up minor actions. Daggers and shortswords maintain ease of flank, but bring their lesser damage.</p><p></p><p>The rogue can even use another feat for Two-Weapon Fighting, bringing him ahead by 2 or 1.5 points per hit. This is better, but still not to the mighty levels of advantage we keep hearing about. And of course, it's another feat the warlock can spend on defenses or utility.</p><p></p><p>And then there's encounter and daily powers. A rogue can't go above a d8 on his [W], while a warlock often has a similar number of d8s or d10s. The fact that a rogue can use feats to boost the damage of Deep Cut(rogue 5) more than a warlock can boost Avernian Eruption(warlock 5) does not make the rogue a better damage dealer than the warlock.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="theNater, post: 4406034, member: 62560"] Okay, let's run the numbers again. We will ignore magical gear and the Weapon Focus type feats, assuming that both characters will get identical bonuses from them. Working with characters before level 4, so I don't have to worry about attribute increases. Warlock with 20 con: A)Hellish Rebuke with both hits and curse does 3d6+10 damage. Average: 20.5 B)Hellish Rebuke with only one hit and curse does 2d6+5 damage. Average: 12 Rogue with 18 dex, 18 cha: A)Sly Flourish with rapier, Sneak Attack, and Backstabber does 3d8+8 damage. Average: 21.5 B)Sly Flourish with rapier and Backstabber does 1d8+8 damage. Average: 12.5 At this point, the rogue is ahead by one point of damage per hit if the enemy is cooperative, half a point if the enemy is uncooperative. This is not a gamebreakingly horrific damage advantage, and it is not without cost to the rogue. The reason we hear that the rogue is leaving the warlock in the dust is that people keep comparing warlock B to rogue A. The rogue has spent two feats to reach this slight advantage. The warlock can use those feats for things like Defensive Mobility, which couples with temporary hit points and last round's Shadow Walk to make walking around and/or firing in melee a reasonably safe proposition. Defensive Mobility, Improved Initiative, Quick Draw, and Toughness are just a few of the feats that both rogues and warlocks will find tempting. The warlock can be collecting these while the rogue is struggling to get ahead. The rogue has options, of course. If the feat cost is too much, the rapier can be replaced with a crossbow, making it more difficult to safely get combat advantage and eating up minor actions. Daggers and shortswords maintain ease of flank, but bring their lesser damage. The rogue can even use another feat for Two-Weapon Fighting, bringing him ahead by 2 or 1.5 points per hit. This is better, but still not to the mighty levels of advantage we keep hearing about. And of course, it's another feat the warlock can spend on defenses or utility. And then there's encounter and daily powers. A rogue can't go above a d8 on his [W], while a warlock often has a similar number of d8s or d10s. The fact that a rogue can use feats to boost the damage of Deep Cut(rogue 5) more than a warlock can boost Avernian Eruption(warlock 5) does not make the rogue a better damage dealer than the warlock. [/QUOTE]
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