Help me grock the warlock

[Felon]

So, I'm finally getting a chance to play instead of run. My first character is a warlock and I'm trying to figure out what makes it good.

I'm effectively the only class in the party not using a weapon to deal damage. The party (which is at six players when everyone shows up) has all three striker classes represented. The ranger gets to milk d10's on all of his attacks as a result of using a longbow or bastard sword, while the rogue's got a +8 to hit with his dagger to my +4. They both have options for melee and range.

By comparison, a warlock is stuck making ranged attacks while at the same time not enjoying much range compared to what the martial classes get from their weapons (warlock powers tend to have ranges of 5 or 10 squares).

I'm kind of in a quandry about how much of a scourge the warlock class is compared to other classes when he is often only doing 2d8 with an encounter or daily while a martial class (even a non-striker) is getting 2W or 3W, where "W" can easily be a d10 or d12.

So, here's the big question: where does the warlock have an edge, particularly compared to the other strikers? I do really like the warlock's at-wills. Dire Radiance and Hellish Rebuke both allow some damage double-dipping. Eldritch blast seems to be a secondary option at best.

Btw, I'm talking about a character starting from first level here, so I am looking at the heroic tier. Discussing how a 20th-level warlock stacks up is pretty much pie-in-the-sky talk.

 

[On Puget Sound]

First of all, you should never be hitting a foe you haven't first cursed. That adds +1d6 to damage on every attack, and is easier to set up by far than sneak attacks. Plus, when those foes drop (whether you kill them or someone else does) you gain a pact bonus on your next turn.

Your eldritch blast does 1d10 + 3 or 4 (for con or cha) + 1d6 (curse) = around 13 average. Rangers' twin strike does 2d10 with no Str/ Dex bonus, +1d6 quarry, for 14.5 average, but requires two to-hit rolls to do that; it will often do only 9 average damage as one shot misses. Rogues' Sly Flourish hits for 1d6 (light weapon) +4 (Dex) +2 (Cha) +1d6 (sneak) = 13 average. So your standard at-wills are not far out of balance.

Your encounter powers mostly do 2d8 and your dailies do 3d6 to 3d10, all adding a stat bonus and a curse bonus d6. Looks to be in line with what the other strikers have.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Your eldritch blast does 1d10 + 3 or 4 (for con or cha) + 1d6 (curse) = around 13 average. Rangers' twin strike does 2d10 with no Str/ Dex bonus, +1d6 quarry, for 14.5 average, but requires two to-hit rolls to do that; it will often do only 9 average damage as one shot misses. Rogues' Sly Flourish hits for 1d6 (light weapon) +4 (Dex) +2 (Cha) +1d6 (sneak) = 13 average. So your standard at-wills are not far out of balance.

Your encounter powers mostly do 2d8 and your dailies do 3d6 to 3d10, all adding a stat bonus and a curse bonus d6. Looks to be in line with what the other strikers have.

What I'm seeing is that the Ranger with twin strike is doing 2d10+1d8 (improved hunters quarry) with a great chance to hit. He has a better chance to hit than the warlock anyway, and he gets his hunters quarry damage unless he misses with both attacks. Even doing a basic attack he does 1d10+4+1d8 or an average of 14 with a better hit probability than the warlock!

The rogue is getting +2d6 sneak attack, and easily gets that up to +2d8 with his improved sneak attack on a pretty regular basis (although suffers a little from having to get in close to do that regularly)

The warlock on the other hand is only getting +1d6 from his curse. The boon isn't all that great at low levels either. The warlock can have lots of people cursed, and if/when area attacks take out a lot of cursed people it can be helpful - but the warlocks don't get all that much in the way of area attacks at low level.

(I'm DMing a party which contains a warlock, a ranger and a rogue, and the warlock is definitely seen as the lightweight of the group at 2nd level now. the other party members keep asking whether he can be reassigned and the have a 'real' wizard assigned to their team )

I agree that Warlocks, at least at low level, seem somewhat weak in the striker role.


Cheers

 

[Felon]

(I'm DMing a party which contains a warlock, a ranger and a rogue, and the warlock is definitely seen as the lightweight of the group at 2nd level now. the other party members keep asking whether he can be reassigned and the have a 'real' wizard assigned to their team )

I agree that Warlocks, at least at low level, seem somewhat weak in the striker role.

What kind of warlock is it in the party? Fey? Like I said, I think a warlock with dire radiance or hellish rebuke is well-positioned to do double-dip damage and basically ignore his eldritch blast much of the time. For my human warlock (who has both), it's effectively 3d6+8 (counting the curse). Next level, I could pick Astral Fire as a feat, which helps the double-dipping effect to snowball. OTOH, Eyebite's damage is a bad joke even for a non-striker.

It's the encounter and daily powers that really raise an eyebrow. The level 1 encounter spells all do 2d8 except for Witfhfire's lame 2d6. This is kind of weak, and none of the rider effects make up for it IMO. The dailies don't hit particularly hard either--not compared to a fighter's brutal strike.

Seems like an unbalancing design decision to give martial classes access to a damage boost through weapon upgrades (like bastard sword), but making the other classes work with unimprovable dice.

As to your party's request to trade in for a wizard, they'd probably be disappointed in that respect as well.

 

[KidSnide]

One of the advantages a warlock has is that his attacks target a variety of defenses (Fort, Ref, Will). If you choose a variety of powers, you can target the enemy's weakest defense. Also, although you do less damage than a archer-ranger, the warlock has better rider effects. Making good use of the rider effects is key to playing an effective warlock.

-KS

 

[jdpacheco]

Building off of KidSnide...

The effects are much better (invisibility, even from a single target, for a round?), and they a fair number of "untyped damage" attacks, including their At-Will.

With curse and the Pact Boons, they can be pretty flexible. They can pretty much always deal extra damage to the closest enemy. The Ranger can *almost* do it, but the Warlock leaves the opponent cursed until the end of the encounter or death of that enemy, needing only as many minor actions to curse as there are enemies, where-as the Ranger needs to use a minor action every time he changes his mind about his primary target. Add the fact that the Pact Boon activates whether the target is dropped by the Warlock or not...

Keep in mind, also, that Warlocks get access to Wands. This gives them the ability to use Wizard powers at least once per day without multi-class feats.

Maybe none of those are compelling to you, but I think it's a decent list.

 

[Nifft]

Warlocks have an ability no other Striker gets: the ability to make use of minions. To a Rogue or Ranger, a sea of minions is nothing but a nuisance. To a Warlock, each one is a Pact Boon bonus waiting to happen.

Making good use of a Warlock may be harder than any other Striker, but they're also the most flexible.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Andor]

What a warlock has over the other strikers is the ability to attack the defense of their choice. So while they do less damage, they do it more reliably.

You're right about them having issues with range however. They get one close attack before Epic tier.

OTOH the best warlock race is (oddly) the Half-elf and they can always pick something useful like 'Hit and Run' or 'Thunderwave' as their dilettante power.

 

[Felon]

Half-elves make good warlocks, but "the best" is debatable.

Saying that warlocks get to target the defense of their choice is a looks-good-on-paper point of view. In practice, for a heroic tier character the at-will is the bread-and-butter and encounters and dailies allow an occasional change of attack. Not enough to offer greater reliability.

I am also rather dubious about the argument that the rider effects are better.

I actually don't see a lot of untyped damage in the warlock powers.

 

[Kitirat]

Half-elves make good warlocks, but "the best" is debatable.

Saying that warlocks get to target the defense of their choice is a looks-good-on-paper point of view. In practice, for a heroic tier character the at-will is the bread-and-butter and encounters and dailies allow an occasional change of attack. Not enough to offer greater reliability.

I am also rather dubious about the argument that the rider effects are better.

I actually don't see a lot of untyped damage in the warlock powers.

Warlocks are different then other strikers. I would say the dwarven infernal lock in the party I DM is the best of them by far in combat. However it is not appearant on paper IMO.

A lock pacts a enemy every turn. Thus in most combats the infernal locks get 4 temp hit points (assuming they take the feat). The damage most 1st level minions do? 4. I've seen a infernal lock take 60 points of damage in a combat without extenal healing (only his minored second wind as a dwarf) with htis ability alone and hold an entire flank.

Your damage is commonly 1d10+4+1d6 for 13 points. HOWEVER, with a quick +1 rod and being a half-elf or dwarf and it is quickly 15 points average, which is pretty darn good. This is not the most comon damage done however. With hellish rebuke it is 1d6+6+1d6+1d6+5 when your damaged for 22.5 average damage, which is better than the ranger can do.

The ranger and the rogue both CAN hit more often or for more single moment damage, but what most fail to see till the game is running is the Lock can do it for a longer period of time without dying or substanital outside help.

Add in the ability to go invisible or gain even more hit ponts with vampric embrace or the armor daily and you have THE primier survivable striker.

As a sub note I think people grossly underestimate the wizard. I have seem wizards do more total damage than any other class in most combats and use flaming sphere to turn the tide of battle.