Help me grock the warlock

[jdpacheco]

I actually don't see a lot of untyped damage in the warlock powers.

Eldritch blast (Bread & Butter At-will, as you said), Diabolic Grasp (L1 Encounter), Otherwind Stride (L3 Encounter, also a Burst), Curse of the Bloody Fangs (L5 Daily), Sign of Ill-Omen (L7 Encounter), Iron Spike of Dis (L9 Daily). Through Heroic Tier, the only time you can't pick an untyped damage attack is for your level 1 Daily, but I think that's balanced by the fact that you have an at-will that not only does untyped but also: Counts as a basic attack, and allows you to choose which stat it's based off.

ETA: The fact that it's a basic attack isn't really what I meant to focus on. It's more important that it's a basic attack which goes against Reflex instead of AC.

 

[Danceofmasks]

Warlock deal less damage than rangers or rogues at low levels.
They do so at higher levels too, unless you use combos.
Warlocks are good for combos.

Twofold curse + Rod of Reaving is my favourite.
Even with just a +1 Rod (too expensive to be your main weapon), it's just so damn cool to make stormtroopers die just by looking at them. And collect their soul from it ... as well as getting temp hp.
Can you tell? I like lifestealers.

 

[Felon]

Eldritch blast (Bread & Butter At-will, as you said), Diabolic Grasp (L1 Encounter), Otherwind Stride (L3 Encounter, also a Burst), Curse of the Bloody Fangs (L5 Daily), Sign of Ill-Omen (L7 Encounter), Iron Spike of Dis (L9 Daily). Through Heroic Tier, the only time you can't pick an untyped damage attack is for your level 1 Daily, but I think that's balanced by the fact that you have an at-will that not only does untyped but also: Counts as a basic attack, and allows you to choose which stat it's based off.

ETA: The fact that it's a basic attack isn't really what I meant to focus on. It's more important that it's a basic attack which goes against Reflex instead of AC.

And what does the untyped damage get you compared to an arrow's damage? It's not like there's damage reduction anymore. Actually, it has the downside of not being improved by feats like Astral Fire. Heck, give me radiant damage. Who resists radiant?

 

[jdpacheco]

And what does the untyped damage get you compared to an arrow's damage? It's not like there's damage reduction anymore.

Of course there is, it's just called "Resistance" now, and there are creatures that have "Resist Weapon Damage". Also, the Ironskin Belt gives "Resist Weapon Damage". Obviously fire damage and such will get over that, but an arrow or thrown dagger, or any other form of basic attack (other than Magic Missile at the moment) will not do so.

I can't remember the ruling on Resist All with untyped, though I'm sure that would resist it. That would be the *only* resistance that could stop it, though.

Actually, it has the downside of not being improved by feats like Astral Fire. Heck, give me radiant damage. Who resists radiant?

I don't have the MM with me today, so I don't have an answer to that "Who resists radiant?", though I'm sure they exist. And, if you want radiant then take any of the other abilities which *do* deal radiant (they have a few). Be an undead slayin' warlock... Go Star Pact and you get an at will that does Radiant (and punishes them for moving closer to you)... and there's Dread Star... So not much, but you've still got that Daily... With astral fire, you can take fire on those "off" levels and still be doing pretty well for damage increase.

The only feats available to Rogues don't scale with tier....

 

[theNater]

I'm effectively the only class in the party not using a weapon to deal damage. The party (which is at six players when everyone shows up) has all three striker classes represented. The ranger gets to milk d10's on all of his attacks as a result of using a longbow or bastard sword, while the rogue's got a +8 to hit with his dagger to my +4. They both have options for melee and range.

So, here's the big question: where does the warlock have an edge, particularly compared to the other strikers? I do really like the warlock's at-wills. Dire Radiance and Hellish Rebuke both allow some damage double-dipping. Eldritch blast seems to be a secondary option at best.

You've actually already answered your own question. The ranger has damage dice as big as or bigger than the warlock, but a canny warlock can put a +4 to hit to work against a defense that is as many as 4 points lower than the defense a ranger targets with +6. If you've got Hellish Rebuke and Dire radiance, you can choose freely between Reflex and Fortitude, so you've got a good chance to have a weakness to target.

The rogue takes that +8 to hit with a 1d4 weapon. So there is an accuracy advantage to the rogue in most situations, though with a little care the warlock can equalize the accuracy, while still doing more damage.

You've noticed that there are two parts that count towards the success of attacks(accuracy and damage), but you've only compared the warlock to the others in the part that favors them.

I'm kind of in a quandry about how much of a scourge the warlock class is compared to other classes when he is often only doing 2d8 with an encounter or daily while a martial class (even a non-striker) is getting 2W or 3W, where "W" can easily be a d10 or d12.

The average damage from a 3[W] roll caps at 21 from a 2d6 weapon. Flames of Phlegethos has an average damage roll of 15.5, plus 5 more damage guaranteed from the ongoing. Every class that is capable of wielding a 2d6 weapon initially also proficient in shields, so they must give up some defenses to get up to the warlock, while the other classes must spend a feat.

For encounters, nobody's got better than 2[W], which can surpass a warlock's 2d8. Average on 4d6 is 14, on 2d8 it's 9. By adding curse damage, however, the warlock is up to an average of 12.5, which is pretty close considering that the warlock doesn't need both hands or a feat.

 

[Plane Sailing]

What kind of warlock is it in the party? Fey?

yep, a Fey warlock. Great at teleporting around, not so good at hurting people

As to your party's request to trade in for a wizard, they'd probably be disappointed in that respect as well.

Well, when the warlock (and his party) was captured, a 'B team' was sent in to rescue them, and this player had a 1st level wizard who kicked ass and took names... that is why they want him back, but the player likes his warlock

 

[Plane Sailing]

A while ago I counted up the keyword powers for wizards, so I thought I'd do it for warlocks too

Warlock keywords

acid	0	encounter		0	daily
cold	2	encounter		4	daily
fire	3	encounter		6	daily
force	0	encounter		0	daily
lightning	0	encounter		0	daily
necrotic	2	encounter		2	daily
poison	2	encounter		1	daily
psychic	2	encounter		5	daily
radiant	1	encounter		1	daily
thunder	2	encounter		0	daily

compared with wizard
Wizard keywords

acid	1	encounter		3	daily
cold	6	encounter		7	daily
fire	6	encounter		7	daily
force	5	encounter		3	daily
lightning	3	encounter		2	daily
necrotic	2	encounter		2	daily
poison	0	encounter		5	daily
psychic	2	encounter		2	daily
radiant	2	encounter		0	daily
thunder	2	encounter		1	daily

Cheers

 

[IanArgent]

A human warlock can target 3 different defenses with his at-wills, and 2 of them will run off his prime stat. That's not too bad.

 

[Mengu]

I don't have much experience with the others, but I can give some insight on how to make a starpact warlock work at levels 3-4'ish.

You pretty much have to have Improved Fate of the Void. Astral Fire is also very helpful.

Your first few turns are spent cursing something that's on a flank, using Dire Radiance on it, and Shadow Walking to the other flank where you can curse something else next turn. Since whatever you hit with Dire Radiance likely needs to move closer, you'll be doing more damage to it. If it doesn't move, then you've successfully done a bit of board control. Second turn, you do the same on the other flank. Third turn, you may get to do it again or not, depending on positioning. You may just be better off with an Eldritch Blast. Position yourself so you can curse at least a third target.

By this time, your allies should start dropping your curse targets, and with a +2 or +3 bonus, you may have the attention of your Cleric as a good bonus stacking target. Your allies will also typically have used a few encounter powers and will be running low. It's your time to turn on the burner. Use Frigid Darkness on something tough, to help make the best of the few remaining encounter powers your allies have, and for your next attack.

If the encounter is challenging (you'll have a good idea by this time), use Diabolic Grasp to slide something away so it has to move closer to you or an ally next turn to attack, and follow it up with an action point to toss Dire Radiance. Now the target will also take damage when it moves. And both these attacks are quite likely to hit thanks to Frigid Darkness from the round before.

Then you fall back on Eldritch Blasts since you will prefer to target Reflex over Fortitude for the most part. If you have gained any temporary hit points, try to spend them by walking right up to your Fighter's or Paladin's mark and Eldritch Blasting them. This will provoke an opportunity attack from the enemy, which in turn will either provoke a combat challenge attack from the fighter, or do Divine Challenge damage, while you are benefitting from Prime Shot. Thanks to your good Con, you can take a few hits, and have a decent number of surges so you shouldn't have to worry too much about spending those after combat.

Try to find a Rod of Corruption, as early as you can. If you can curse a minion and kill it early on in a fight, you'll be collecting pact boon bonuses fast.

Clearly, it's not as easy as, ho hum, I use Twin Strike to shoot my quarry twice, done, next. But a Star Pact Warlock is still quite fun and fairly effective.

 

[ppaladin123]

Starting at 3rd level you'll also get access to some AoE spells like Otherwind stride and Hunger of Hadar. The warlock is a secondary controller.