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Help me grock the warlock
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<blockquote data-quote="theNater" data-source="post: 4407114" data-attributes="member: 62560"><p>If another party member is doing reduced damage so that the rogue can perform his Sneak Attack, we need to penalize the Sneak Attack damage by that amount to get an accurate feel for damage contributed by the rogue.</p><p></p><p>You don't need to control what the DM does with the monsters. Tide of Iron and Thunderwave can be used to trigger Dire Radiance, and Cloud of Daggers, Scorching Burst, and Thunderwave can be used to trigger Hellish Rebuke.</p><p></p><p>One thing the DM <em>can</em> do with the monsters is make them delay until just before the rogue, attack, then move to a point where they are not adjacent to any other party member. Then the rogue doesn't have combat advantage, and all of those mighty damage bonuses are gone.</p><p></p><p>A rogue who uses a dagger will hit more, but for significantly less damage. A rogue who uses a rapier and has combat advantage is 2 points ahead of a warlock who has Prime Shot, 3 points ahead of one who doesn't. Of course, there's the feat cost to the rapier. A rogue who uses a crossbow is going to have just as hard a time getting combat advantage as the warlock does, and it hurts the rogue more.</p><p></p><p>Which brings me to one of my main points. Combat advantage is not automatic. Assuming the rogue has it every round while the warlock rarely or never has Prime Shot makes the rogue's numbers look massively better, especially with the huge chunk of damage Sneak Attack does.</p><p></p><p>Let's get the numbers out here. We'll use the same warlock and the same rogue, and look at a few other first level powers and a few other situations. Do note, however, that the rogue's advantage on attack bonuses is one lower than expected, as he has an 18 dex while the warlock has a 20 con.</p><p></p><p>Rogue:</p><p>With Sneak Attack:</p><p>Torturous Strike: 2d8+2d8+4+3+3. Avg 28, max 42, miss 0.</p><p>Trick Strike: 3d8+2d8+4+3. Avg 29.5, max 47, miss 0.</p><p></p><p>Without Sneak Attack:</p><p>Torturous Strike: 2d8+4+3. Avg 16, max 23, miss 0.</p><p>Trick Strike: 3d8+4. Avg 17.5, max 28, miss 0.</p><p></p><p>Warlock:</p><p>With curse, burn for 1 round:</p><p>Vampiric Embrace: 2d8+1d6+5. Avg 17.5, max 27, miss 0.</p><p>Flames of Phlegethos: 3d10+1d6+5+5. Avg 30, max 46, miss 5+1d6</p><p></p><p>With curse, no burn:</p><p>Vampiric Embrace: Same.</p><p>Flames of Phlegethos: 3d10+1d6+5. Avg 25, max 41, miss 0.</p><p></p><p>No curse, burn for 1 round:</p><p>Vampiric Embrace: 2d8+5. Avg 14, max 21, miss 0.</p><p>Flames of Phlegethos: 3d10+5+5. Avg 26.5, max 40, miss 5.</p><p></p><p>No curse, no burn:</p><p>Vampiric Embrace: Same.</p><p>Flames of Phlegethos: 3d10+5. Avg 21.5, max 35, miss 0.</p><p></p><p>What can we conclude? Firstly, that Torturous Strike is crazy awesome for a brutal scoundrel with a rapier and the Backstabber feat.</p><p></p><p>Secondly, that losing Sneak Attack hurts a rogue far more than losing curse hurts a warlock. Given that it is easier to deny combat advantage than it is to remove a Warlock's Curse, this is significant.</p><p></p><p>The actual numbers tell us that under optimal conditions, the rouge's encounter beats the warlock's encounter power significantly, and the warlock's daily beats the rogue's daily anywhere from slightly to massively, depending on how the target does on saves. Under terrible conditions, the rogue's encounter beats the warlock's encounter slightly and the warlock's daily power beats the rogue's daily significantly. So rogues have a distinct advantage if everything always goes their way.</p><p></p><p>I also find the implication that it is easier for a target to shake off a save ends effect before its turn than it is to deny the rogue combat advantage hilarious.</p><p></p><p>Yes, the rogue can switch freely between the reduced damage of the dagger and the reduced accuracy of the rapier. Nothing prevents the warlock from picking up a shield with one of the feats not needed for Backstabber and Weapon Proficiency in the rapier. Weapon Focus does not carry a bigger damage boost than Astral Fire, so the rogue has no advantage over the warlock with it.</p><p></p><p>I'm assuming the +1 to hit is coming from the Nimble Blade feat, which still only functions when the rogue has combat advantage. Combat advantage is not automatic, so while this is pure advantage to the rogue, it is not constant.</p><p></p><p>Remember that the mighty Torturous Strike build requires ability score allocation(usually involving race choice), build choice, and two feats. The warlock opposing it requires only ability score allocation, and so has some pact options and two spare feats.</p><p></p><p>I can see that you're telling me that a warlock's damage is less than a rogue's damage, and I have my doubts. I hope that by sharing my doubts and spinning theory machines, I can learn something.</p><p></p><p>Thanks to this thread, I have learned that Torturous Strike is an incredibly powerful ability and that a warlock needs only to damage a target to inflict curse damage, rather than hitting, as a rogue must for Sneak Attack.</p><p></p><p>I hope this thread continues to share enlightenment.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="theNater, post: 4407114, member: 62560"] If another party member is doing reduced damage so that the rogue can perform his Sneak Attack, we need to penalize the Sneak Attack damage by that amount to get an accurate feel for damage contributed by the rogue. You don't need to control what the DM does with the monsters. Tide of Iron and Thunderwave can be used to trigger Dire Radiance, and Cloud of Daggers, Scorching Burst, and Thunderwave can be used to trigger Hellish Rebuke. One thing the DM [I]can[/I] do with the monsters is make them delay until just before the rogue, attack, then move to a point where they are not adjacent to any other party member. Then the rogue doesn't have combat advantage, and all of those mighty damage bonuses are gone. A rogue who uses a dagger will hit more, but for significantly less damage. A rogue who uses a rapier and has combat advantage is 2 points ahead of a warlock who has Prime Shot, 3 points ahead of one who doesn't. Of course, there's the feat cost to the rapier. A rogue who uses a crossbow is going to have just as hard a time getting combat advantage as the warlock does, and it hurts the rogue more. Which brings me to one of my main points. Combat advantage is not automatic. Assuming the rogue has it every round while the warlock rarely or never has Prime Shot makes the rogue's numbers look massively better, especially with the huge chunk of damage Sneak Attack does. Let's get the numbers out here. We'll use the same warlock and the same rogue, and look at a few other first level powers and a few other situations. Do note, however, that the rogue's advantage on attack bonuses is one lower than expected, as he has an 18 dex while the warlock has a 20 con. Rogue: With Sneak Attack: Torturous Strike: 2d8+2d8+4+3+3. Avg 28, max 42, miss 0. Trick Strike: 3d8+2d8+4+3. Avg 29.5, max 47, miss 0. Without Sneak Attack: Torturous Strike: 2d8+4+3. Avg 16, max 23, miss 0. Trick Strike: 3d8+4. Avg 17.5, max 28, miss 0. Warlock: With curse, burn for 1 round: Vampiric Embrace: 2d8+1d6+5. Avg 17.5, max 27, miss 0. Flames of Phlegethos: 3d10+1d6+5+5. Avg 30, max 46, miss 5+1d6 With curse, no burn: Vampiric Embrace: Same. Flames of Phlegethos: 3d10+1d6+5. Avg 25, max 41, miss 0. No curse, burn for 1 round: Vampiric Embrace: 2d8+5. Avg 14, max 21, miss 0. Flames of Phlegethos: 3d10+5+5. Avg 26.5, max 40, miss 5. No curse, no burn: Vampiric Embrace: Same. Flames of Phlegethos: 3d10+5. Avg 21.5, max 35, miss 0. What can we conclude? Firstly, that Torturous Strike is crazy awesome for a brutal scoundrel with a rapier and the Backstabber feat. Secondly, that losing Sneak Attack hurts a rogue far more than losing curse hurts a warlock. Given that it is easier to deny combat advantage than it is to remove a Warlock's Curse, this is significant. The actual numbers tell us that under optimal conditions, the rouge's encounter beats the warlock's encounter power significantly, and the warlock's daily beats the rogue's daily anywhere from slightly to massively, depending on how the target does on saves. Under terrible conditions, the rogue's encounter beats the warlock's encounter slightly and the warlock's daily power beats the rogue's daily significantly. So rogues have a distinct advantage if everything always goes their way. I also find the implication that it is easier for a target to shake off a save ends effect before its turn than it is to deny the rogue combat advantage hilarious. Yes, the rogue can switch freely between the reduced damage of the dagger and the reduced accuracy of the rapier. Nothing prevents the warlock from picking up a shield with one of the feats not needed for Backstabber and Weapon Proficiency in the rapier. Weapon Focus does not carry a bigger damage boost than Astral Fire, so the rogue has no advantage over the warlock with it. I'm assuming the +1 to hit is coming from the Nimble Blade feat, which still only functions when the rogue has combat advantage. Combat advantage is not automatic, so while this is pure advantage to the rogue, it is not constant. Remember that the mighty Torturous Strike build requires ability score allocation(usually involving race choice), build choice, and two feats. The warlock opposing it requires only ability score allocation, and so has some pact options and two spare feats. I can see that you're telling me that a warlock's damage is less than a rogue's damage, and I have my doubts. I hope that by sharing my doubts and spinning theory machines, I can learn something. Thanks to this thread, I have learned that Torturous Strike is an incredibly powerful ability and that a warlock needs only to damage a target to inflict curse damage, rather than hitting, as a rogue must for Sneak Attack. I hope this thread continues to share enlightenment. [/QUOTE]
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