Help me make this child rogue a unique build?

[Julix]

There's this rogue kid in heavy armor, is there a way to make it feasible? If not what should I make out of him? OP supporter/enabler builds are fine, else I just want to not weigh the party down due to rp based choices.


Stats: Str 6, Dex 21, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 6 Cha 7 --- standard 15 point buy, small Human Child

Level 1 rogue, Traits: Armor Expert, Sword Scion, Considering taking flaw(s). 2 Feats still unchosen.

Background
Hard Fluff is a lawful good noble child thinks of himself as an honorable fighter but was magically "called" to be a "Guardian of the Valley" of the rogue variant. He won't age for 100 years, and then vanish.

More fluff: family has been prepping other offsprings to become fighter guardians and were surprised by one of theirs becoming a rogue (since it's blood based, must have been some unknown mixing) - still they gave the child the same amount of kind of gear they'd have given the older warriors. He thus comes in full plate on horse with parade armor with dueling sword and heavy shield, with boxes and bags full of stuff like noble clothing and gear.

RP so far: met the other guardians (Elf archer-ranger, dwarf fighter, halfing sorcerer, and human melee priest). They tried to convince him to take off the heavy armor (cause he has trouble walking straight in it). He challenged priest and ranger to try and hurt him, they tried and failed due to his armor bonus being so so high. He also didn't manage to hit back due to penalties.

He's proud, oblivious, stubborn, and has preconceived notions of what a hero is (and considers himself one) so he will stick to using his family gear unless convinced otherwise (which they'll keep trying, so question of time, unless I come up with a reason not to).

Build(s)

Bodyguard
- Take flaw "Overprotective" and bonus trait "Adopted->Helpful(Halfling)"
- Feat: Combat reflexes
- Feat: Bodyguard
Result: +4 to AC of adjacent ally 5/round - IF in a position to attack the aggressor, and attack roll beats DC of 10.

Problems:
1. needs to be adjacent
2. needs to threaten attacking enemy
3. needs to beat 10 DC.

1. perhaps do from horseback so you can catch up with allies quickly desipite 15 ft movement speed in heavy armor
2. perhaps range weapon? If so which one?
3. IF rolling in full armor (-6), with heavy shield (-2), small (+1), low strength (-2) => at least -9 to hit. - Possibly worse if not proficient with reach weapon.

Possible solutions: less armor, better materials, weapon finesse (at level 2 via rogue talent)

Example: On horseback with sorcerer behind on same horse (do they need concentration to cast if they're just a "passenger"?), other party members next to the horse. Wielding scorpion whip and shield (so I can "threaten" next to me if need be). Extra -4 for non-proficiency with the whip, but possibly +5 from weapon finesse... oh I see, that wouldn't work.

Possible solution: take 1 level in fighter. Use lance with the newly gained martial proficiency, and ignore ACP for attack rolls. Now what do we have? d20-1(-2 str+1) size versus DC of 10 -> more than half the time I'll still fail to give protection? There's no light martial reach weapon, is there?

[side blurb: also fighter gets bonus feat, bonus to fortitude. - downside, once the insight sinks in and he becomes more like rogue he wouldn't need the proficiencies, and will be wanting sneak damage... Also I'll still have to undo the armor for rogue functions like disable device checks. - However will be guardian for 100 years, could retrain both feats and class later. --- At this point I probably still could retrocon the child as a first level fighter and take rogue second... matches character's fluff better, but perhaps not campaigns, because he's got to be "appropriate" for the rogue role, even if not obvious. Maybe 1 rank in disable device. Already used acrobatics, so got to put a rank in that. leaves me with knowledge nobility and ride? - I also wouldn't have the heavy armor on lvl 1 as a fighter. So maybe act like a fighter (even if it's ineffective as of yet) until level 2 then take 1 lvl fighter, then back to rogue? - for what exactly? ]


What else can I do with this? (I'll edit new suggestions into this post as further possible builds)


Thanks for your help!

Julian

 

[gamerprinter]

Why a rogue? Rogues cannot normally wear full plate armor, aside from the fact that wearing such armor would be large negative modifiers to your skill checks, and skill checks are what rogues are all about. I can see a child PC in lots of roles, especially as a rogue, but as a noble child who wears full plate armor, wouldn't fighter, cavalier or samurai be a better choice? If you really want rogue, I'd chuck the armor and any future considerations for full plate armor. Give the child light armor, no shields and you've got potential for a rogue. If you really want full plate armor then pick another character class. Even with a class dip in fighter to get access to full plate armor, wearing full plate armor will make you a less than optimal rogue (and rogues are kind of a suboptimal character class choice to begin with).

Not that samurai is a good fit (I'm guessing you're playing in a Euro-centric flavored game), though you can always wave the oriental fluff and alter the look to more of a western knight with samurai class features (its definitely doable), I've got a samurai archetype called a Kuge (posted on d20pfsrd.com), which is a high status born samurai who is really built to be more of a courtier with 'skill monkey' options, and slightly slower progression of standard samurai abilities of resolve and banner abilities.

 

[Morrus]

Moved to the character builds forum.

 

[mendesahi]

i like it

 

[Julix]

Rambling. Paladin?

Moved to the character builds forum.

Thanks!

Why a rogue?[...]

It's kind of a long story. Short answer, cause of strange interaction between what the GM wants and what I love.

Full story (with spoiler so you know not to feel obliged to read it.

Spoiler

I went for a swashbuckler, then cavalier, then was told core race+class. I mentioned the child template and got that approved (due to the crazy attribute penalties, maybe GM just wanted to see if I *could* pull it off). -- His story is based on having people that are distant offsprings of the original heroes of the Valley (which included a rogue) hear a magical calling and meet to protect the valley for the next 100 years. So I have to fulfill the rogue function, and since I already was chosen for the rogue position I have to have those abilities from the get go. In core, the rogue is the only person with the ability of disarming magical traps. The valley magic chooses the right person for the task even if it's not obvious. It's fairly low magic campaign, and roleplay heavy, with a spontaneous GM, so I'm not too worried about being under-optimized. He'd just adjust encounters appropriately, methinks. It doesn't have to be over-powered, just functional. And fun. In my case fun means outside of the box, original, creative and strange... pull of something (even if just barely) that doesn't seem like it would work, but does. Game is biweekly, and I'm an overthinker, so I have plenty of time to test builds between games, test feasability...

I think backwards sometimes, looking at strange mechanics and then inventing the fluff for it afterwards, and then going back to change mechanics based on the fluff. I saw the Armor Expert trait, and how it can combine with mithral breast plate for 0 APC light armor with 6 AC, 5 max dex bonus... good stuff. Then I saw the Sword Scion and realized how cool that is. Then I realized it would be overpowered. I thought about who would have that sort of thing and came up with my noble rogue idea. I thought about if I start with heavy armor, no one is going to look at it strangely when later I wear light versions of heavy armor. I intended to dump it soon (and not sell it because that would be way too much money for first level character - and I don't ever want to use a GM's approval for cool ideas for anything but making the game better). But I roleplayed the child as heroic and stubborn and the others characters sofar haven't talked him out of it yet. Also while the ranger was beating the child (for a whole mintue!) to make a point, I realized out of character that heavy armor actually does protect you... And I get fairly attached to my characters. Also I'll get +5 to hit otherwise from dex alone, and that seems overpowered for first level. Once I started reducing my to hit chance a little it got out of hand fast and I realized I'm now never going to hit. If I just never even tried to hit anything, how could I still help in combat?

And then I saw the bodyguard feat as a comment to the helpful trait in the trait guide, so I looked it up, and it seems almost feasible. Especially if the armor penalties don't count against my attacks, so I considered fighter again, and remembered that I only got the armor for roleplay reasons and because it doesn't threaten balance. If I go first level fighter and keep the armor it would be unfair for example to the Dwarven first level fighter. -- If I use the armor in combat and roleplay training with it and take a level in fighter that seems much less unfair, but it still is a little. I like gaming rules if it leads to make me so far superior that I can then throw all kinds of penalties on myself to come out awesomely average in a new strange way, ideally as enabler. If as fighter feat I took whip proficiency and get an exotic whip I could interfere with physical attacks in quite a range around me.

Rogues cannot normally wear full plate armor, aside from the fact that wearing such armor would be large negative modifiers to your skill checks [only strength and dex related ones... oh right. dex. I'm a thief. sort of what I do. Especially with my lack of Charisma...], and skill checks are what rogues are all about. I can see a child PC in lots of roles, especially as a rogue, but as a noble child who wears full plate armor, wouldn't fighter, cavalier or samurai be a better choice? [it would be, but the magic called me as a thief, and I have a really high dex. However leveling speed is fast, so if you can think of a way to make low str high dex work, so another class is worth it as a dip, or as new class after level 2, I'm all ears.] If you really want rogue, I'd chuck the armor and any future considerations for full plate armor. Give the child light armor, no shields and you've got potential for a rogue. If you really want full plate armor then pick another character class. Even with a class dip in fighter to get access to full plate armor, wearing full plate armor will make you a less than optimal rogue (and rogues are kind of a suboptimal character class choice to begin with). [What if you thought of me as a fighter with dips in rogue?]

I really like the Samurai archetype you posted... maybe later in the game I won't be forced into core (once the GM trusts me that I'm playing for awesomeness not raw over-power-ness).

I guess I'm not looking for a proper build as much as little ways in which I can make the character I've got feasible.

For example, the "Student of Philosophy" trait would help this build get from -2 (charisma) to +2 (intelligence) based Diplomacy (except for rolling for info gathering, but I could roll to change attitude first and then just ask) and Bluffing for lying (i.e. not feinting). +8 effective and useful skill points for half-a-feat? This seems like a good match for the build.

Maybe even for the party. We'll also have a sorcerer with high charisma who can bluff, but I don't know the player yet. and just for between player actions I've been relying on diplomacy checks a fair bit, when we were arguing about the armor and such. Note I'm not using the dice instead of roleplay but for guiding the conversation. I'd make others roll to see how much what they're saying is influencing the child. Worked great sofar. - Low charisma but high diplomacy makes sense of the child being sort of annoying but making good points and what not. One of the reasons I'm happy I'm not playing a fighter is because of all that skill monkey business. However for most things that I want to be good at (say ride) I get a lot of bonuses, so having lots of skills early on and spreading them wide, and few ranks later to get really good at a few things could work perfectly. Diplomacy isn't affected by the armor penalty, nor are intelligence checks. With this I could be half a face. The other half would be the rest of the party's sense motive checks, and them telling me if the person we're talking to is being dishonest, and the Sorcerer's bluff if we ever need to lie. If he lies well (wisdom 7, I might not notice) I'll chip in "Oh that makes so much sense because" and rationalize it somehow in a way that combined with the child's naivete of the lie (using intelligence->aid-another->bluff) and Adopted(Halfling)->Helpful(Halfling) would increase their roll by +4!

Traps are dangerous, and at low levels my child will fail seeing them a lot. The ranger can be the scout, if I help the party surely they'll help me in and out of my armor and then we'll deal with the actual traps (if we can't just avoid them). I was looking at some piecemeal armors (breast plate and legs with leather arms) for less AC but also less ACP. Since it makes sense I think the GM might allow it, [unless I try something overpowered like this: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JEFZetixyj8iUgQr1kGxsiZv2qIK7bA77GrbDM-87TE/edit for a 7500 gp Mithral "medium" armor with AC 9, ACP -1, and <10 lb weight for the small creature he is.] Then I won't have to slow down the game (ingame time only) by taking off armor every time for disarming. But he's smart. So we might just trigger the traps instead if possible. [The level ups will be given as appropriate so we don't have to go kill things for XP or deal with traps in a certain way to get maximum benefit out of it, or other silliness.]

I'm not all that attached to the Sword Scion trait anymore. When I saw it I thought - puuuure powaaa - but to him it's basically a fancy long sword (due to lack of dueling sword proficiency) and one size too big on top of that. For a +1 to hit with a weapon type he can't use well? Though I could reforge or buy a new one later... still I didn't realize proficiency with the weapon does not come with the trait (obviously, that would be much too powerful). - I might keep the sword for when I don't have to hit anything, but make it so hard to draw from his back then most of the time he'll just pull the dagger from his belt instead. Dump the trait and keep the fluff?

For my dip I could become a instead of fighter. Better saves, but no feat, but good aura and it's within the alignment... and it's fairly original... a rogue with an aura of good... -- I'd have to be careful in my choice of God though. What's the least lawful God (domains like: compassion, courage, community-service, cunning creativity, ...) that he could become a Paladin of?


Wow this got long fast. Clearly I'm to tired to be writing concisely right now... I apologize for writing anyways.


EDIT: There's a Rogue Talent called Sacred Sneak Attack! That seems awesome for the paladin idea... if we're going to be fighting undead and stuff... - we do have a cleric too, making the appearance of such slightly more likely

 

[gamerprinter]

One small issue to consider. A rogue can only wear light armor. Even though mithral breastplate is equivalent to light armor by weight, it is still considered medium armor, so unless a rogue takes a feat to allow for heavier armors he cannot wear it, because he doesn't qualify to wear it. I know mithral changes its weight, but it still doesn't change breast plate's classification as medium armor.

While I cannot attest for every 3PP designer, the designs for my published setting are intentionally made not to be OP if possible. I try to balance any possible archetypes to be comparable to Paizo's own power limitations. The kuge shouldn't be considered OP.

I too enjoy making builds based on back story too, and not necessarily for optimization (I try not to be suboptimal, however.) So I understand your goals here, better. If its traps you must deal with then rogue or urban ranger are your only normal choices, so I think under that pretense you are well on your way to a build you want to make. I don't really have more to offer.

 

[Julix]

[...]A rogue can only wear light armor. [...] unless a rogue takes a feat to allow for heavier armors he cannot wear it, because he doesn't qualify to wear it.

That is not true. You just get the full armor check penalty to attack rolls in addition to strength and dexterity based skill checks. Anyone can wear the armor (and get protection from it) - but what you can do while wearing it depends on your proficiencies with it or the penalties associated with the armor. So yes, for a rogue with Armor Expert in Mithral Breastplate all of the the penalties of 0 apply to both skill checks and attack rolls... see what I did there?

 

[gamerprinter]

Yeah, I see what you did there. I don't find that practical, nor interesting, perhaps as an intellectual exercise on how to deliberate build something that is unoptimized - or any attribute that could be considered optimization is balanced by something else taking away the advantage. If that's your goal then great, but I cannot really help you - its not a way that I'd ever build a character. Good luck, though...

 

[Julix]

optimizing the suboptimal

The problem with normal optimizing is that it can easily break the game, which I want to avoid.

Still the armor was supposed to be optimal down the road. -- however I just realized a flaw in it: max dex bonus with Breastplate is 5, I'll have a bonus of 6 by 4th level, so I'm loosing out. The Mithral Chain Shirt will let me have the full +6 but has less base AC, so the breastplate is still 1 point better unless you combine the shirt with an armored kilt. But there's a fighter trait that gives +1 to AC if in medium armor. Chain shirt + armored kilt is medium armor. So is Mithral breast plate, but for mithral breast plate I still need Armor Expert to get to 0 ACP, which is a combat trait and thus can't be combined with Defender of Society (Fighter). Unless I could take the Regional feat that also reduces ACP by 1, but not as a combat trait. I could combine that either with a darkwood heavy shield, or a light weapon and two weapon fighting. But the latter is feat intensive, and my dexterity bonus is so large if I can get the "keen" enhancement on a weapon my damage will go up by 8 points (that's worth over 2 average sneak dice). Is dervish dance worth it? Let's me have the same bonus, but only when using only one scimitar. Basically selling a feat for a +1 magical enhancement bonus

 

[gamerprinter]

Nobody in my group over-optimizes their characters, but never build deliberate suboptimal builds. Min-Maxing is not something we allow in our games, and I happen to play with the same set of folks I've been playing with for the last 20 years. So we like to chose feats and features that are synergistic in a positive way, but that doesn't make us optimizers, not really. However, as in your case, deliberately balancing a negative with a positive sounds like an exercise in futility, something I wouldn't support nor recommend for anyone in my group. I'm not saying its "wrong", but if you're looking for help, I can't do a thing in trying to duplicate your balancing act method of character design.