Help me understand the snatch feat

[Pielorinho]

(I had to rework the title several times so it didn't sound dirty)

I've read the feat a couple of times, and it mentions cool things a dragon can do when snatching an opponent significantly smaller than itself. What I'm wondering applies to a size large dragon fighting size medium creatures. Specifically:

1) Can it move while engaging in a snatch-induced grapple?
2) Can it fling an opponent while engaging in a snatch-induced grapple?

It looks like the answer to #2 is yes, but this seems problematic: as written, a size large adult black dragon could grapple a size huge cloud giant and fling the giant 60'. This don't sound right to me. Granted, the giant gets a +26 on its grapple check compared to the dragon's +24, so the giant will on average win the grapple check -- but fairly often, the dragon will end up throwing a 5,000 lb giant, when by the rules it shouldn't be able to lift more than 1,200 lbs.

Can someone explain what a large dragon can do, snatchwise, to a medium creature?

Thanks!
Daniel

PS. Here's the feat from the SRD:

Snatch: A dragon that hits with a claw or bite attack attempts to start a grapple as though it had the improved grab special attack. If the dragon gets a hold with a claw on a creature four or more sizes smaller, it squeezes each round for automatic claw damage. If it gets a hold with its bite on a creature three or more sizes smaller, it automatically deals bite damage each round, or if it does not move and takes no other action in combat, it deals double bite damage to the snatched creature. A snatched creature gets no saving throw against the dragon’s breath weapon. The dragon can drop a creature it has snatched as a free action or use a standard action to fling it aside. A flung creature travels 10 feet, and takes 1d6 points of damage, per age category of the dragon. If the dragon flings it while flying, the creature suffers this amount or falling damage, whichever is greater.

 

[The Souljourner]

*lol* When reading the subject I was thinking "Damn... they certainly could have named THAT feat a little differently!"

I would say that even though it doesn't say it in the rules, the fling ability should only be used by the dragon on creatures 2 sizes smaller or lower. Otherwise, you're right, it's a really stupid image "I can't even pick you up, but I can fling you 60'"

-The Souljourner

 

[Pielorinho]

*lol* When reading the subject I was thinking "Damn... they certainly could have named THAT feat a little differently!"

I would say that even though it doesn't say it in the rules, the fling ability should only be used by the dragon on creatures 2 sizes smaller or lower. Otherwise, you're right, it's a really stupid image "I can't even pick you up, but I can fling you 60'"

-The Souljourner

Thanks, Souljourner! You understand why I didn't name this, "Help me understand a dragon's snatch."

So do you think the same thing should apply to moving while holding somebody? I vaguely recall seeing suggested rules somewhere for moving while grappling -- does anyone know where those are? I might rule that dragons can move while grappling someone at least two sizes smaller without rolling for it; otherwise, they need to make an opposed grapple check, and can move 1 foot for every point by which they exceed their opponent's grapple check, or something like that.

Daniel

 

[kreynolds]

I vaguely recall seeing suggested rules somewhere for moving while grappling -- does anyone know where those are?

I believe there's an entry in the FAQ regarding moving your opponent while you're grappled.

 

[Pielorinho]

Thanks, k! I'll look that up when I get home.

To recap:
-Dragons with the snatch feat can engage in a grapple with anyone without provoking an AoO.
-They can fling someone two or more sizes smaller than they are, though this isn't technically in the rules.
-They can move someone two or more sizes smaller than they are without using an opposed grapple check.
-To move any other grappling opponent, the dragon must make an opposed grapple check; it'll move 1' for every point by which it wins its grapple check.

Does this sound right to people?

Oh, here's another question: the last part makes sense if the dragon is on the ground, but if it's flying, there's no reason it'd need to make an opposed grapple check. How do you figure out whether a dragon (or any other creature) can become airborne with a given amount of weight? Can they carry their max weight limit, based on strength and size, into the air?

Daniel

 

[Schmoe]

Thanks, k! I'll look that up when I get home.

To recap:
-Dragons with the snatch feat can engage in a grapple with anyone without provoking an AoO.
-They can fling someone two or more sizes smaller than they are, though this isn't technically in the rules.
-They can move someone two or more sizes smaller than they are without using an opposed grapple check.
-To move any other grappling opponent, the dragon must make an opposed grapple check; it'll move 1' for every point by which it wins its grapple check.

Does this sound right to people?

Oh, here's another question: the last part makes sense if the dragon is on the ground, but if it's flying, there's no reason it'd need to make an opposed grapple check. How do you figure out whether a dragon (or any other creature) can become airborne with a given amount of weight? Can they carry their max weight limit, based on strength and size, into the air?

Daniel

Hmm, I'm surprised you didn't title the thread "I don't get snatch, can you help?"

Anyway, I always thought that a snatching creature needed to take a -20 penalty on its grapple check if it wanted to move, so that it would not be grappled as well. Considering all the other options, that seems to make the most sense to me.

 

[jonrog1]

Actually, he'd take -20 on the grapple to be able to use his other attacks -- he's grappling with just one claw, mouth, yada yada -- but he can still move.

 

[Pielorinho]

Actually, he'd take -20 on the grapple to be able to use his other attacks -- he's grappling with just one claw, mouth, yada yada -- but he can still move.

This makes sense, and I might end up ruling it this way.

An example:

I'm a badass large dragon, and you're a lowly human. I've got an attack bonus of +25, compared to your attack bonus of +10.

I decide to snatch you and fly off with you, planning on dropping you later on. Here's what happens:

1) I make a melee (bite) attack against you, obviously hitting you because I've got a +25 to hit.
2) We make opposed grapple checks -- mine at +29 (since I'm one size category larger than you), yours at +10. I'd win, obviously, except that I'm wanting to carry you off -- so instead, I take a -20 penalty on my grapple check, for a total of +9 to your +10. For argument's sake, let's say I win the grapple.
3) Here I'm confused. Do I move into your space, even if I don't want to? What about grappling damage? Do I automatically do bite damage to you, even though I just did damage to you?
4) Now that I have you in my mouth, and since I'm taking a -20 on my grapple check, I decide to fly away. Since you weigh less than my total weight allowance, I can fly away at normal speed.

Does this sound right to everyone? Sorry to be so pedantic about this, but I imagine a similar situation may come up in my game soon, and I want to be able to pull off this somewhat complicated maneuver smoothly.

Thanks for the advice!
Daniel

 

[Schmoe]

This makes sense, and I might end up ruling it this way.

An example:

I'm a badass large dragon, and you're a lowly human. I've got an attack bonus of +25, compared to your attack bonus of +10.

I decide to snatch you and fly off with you, planning on dropping you later on. Here's what happens:

1) I make a melee (bite) attack against you, obviously hitting you because I've got a +25 to hit.
2) We make opposed grapple checks -- mine at +29 (since I'm one size category larger than you), yours at +10. I'd win, obviously, except that I'm wanting to carry you off -- so instead, I take a -20 penalty on my grapple check, for a total of +9 to your +10. For argument's sake, let's say I win the grapple.
3) Here I'm confused. Do I move into your space, even if I don't want to? What about grappling damage? Do I automatically do bite damage to you, even though I just did damage to you?

If a creature elects to take a -20 on its grapple check, then the opponent that it grapples is dragged into the creature's space. This does not cause additional damage, but the opponent is now grappled, while the creature is not.

4) Now that I have you in my mouth, and since I'm taking a -20 on my grapple check, I decide to fly away. Since you weigh less than my total weight allowance, I can fly away at normal speed.

Does this sound right to everyone? Sorry to be so pedantic about this, but I imagine a similar situation may come up in my game soon, and I want to be able to pull off this somewhat complicated maneuver smoothly.

Thanks for the advice!
Daniel

Yeah, I think that sounds about right. So, for a creature with the Snatch and Flyby feats, a typical attack might go like this.

1. Start at a distance of 30', with a standard movement of 60'

2. Fly 30' and make a bite attack. If it hits, make a grapple check at -20. If that succeeds, the opponent is now held fast in your jaws.

3. Continue your remaining 30' movement, climbing up into the air to drop the held creature at a later date.

Note that the opponent does not get an attack of opportunity if he is grappled.

I could be missing something, but that seems to be the most reasonable way to handle it.