Help, players are too strong!

[Icaaro]

Hi guys!

So here is the deal.
First let me introduce myself:
My name is Eduardo, i'm 29 and i DM since i was like 15 (yay, almost half my life lol)
I consider myself quite a good DM, but it semmes its only in pre-Epic campaings ...

... but we started a new campaing at level 25. Its our first try at it, so i gave the money to the players as usual (2.1 Million Gps) and told them to make the PCs, and the material they could use was everything printed. Nothing special so far right?

But the players are total power-players. They used the gold to craft the items they need and their gear just completely skyrockets what they can do. For example, they have cloak of resistance that have the following bonuses:
+5 saves Resistance Bonus (Normal +5 cloak)
+5 saves Sacred Bonus (Increased 50% in the price because its Adding to a item that already is enchanted)
+5 saves Insight Bonus (Increased 50% in the price because its Adding to a item that already is enchanted)
+5 saves blah blah bonus (Increased 50% in the price because its Adding to a item that already is enchanted)

So for 50.000 + 75.000 + 75.000 + 75.000 they can have a +20 to saves cloak of resistance.
But this is not all, they do this in almost absolute everything. They are so powerful because of all the money they have, that the monsters dont even harm them.
In the weapons they have all the crystals avaiable in the Magic Item Compedium, so no monsters have DR to them (Seeing that they always have the correct crystal to bypass damage).

In our last session, i droped a CR39 monster right in the middle of them (Remeber, they are level 25), and the poor guy didnt last 2 rounds. They only way I wounded them was using a avatar of nerull (Deities and Pantheons) and that's what they are fighting now.
There's this fighter that has a bonus to hit of +80, and in a crit deals damage of arounf 500hps. He makes 5 attacks per round. In the gear he has, he can fly, charge without getting AoO, makes Crits at 10-20/x4, and pounces (Making full attack in the Charge). This, added to Dev Crit (which the monster always passed so far), makes it so that no monster at around theyr level are easy as a kobold lvl 1 commoner.
This is just the fighter... I also have a druid that shape-shifts into everything i can remeber, and a wizard that has more slots than i can count and 2 quicken spells per round... It's too much for the poor critters.
I mean, im afraid I cant make a decent challenge for them. They are cruising in this campaign. (Which the main quest is saving BeastLands (Home plane of Ehlona)) from a corruption that is spreading.
I feel that the only way i can make decent enemies is if i make NPC's like them, but the money for a NPC is WAY lower and it takes MUCH time in preparation of the session. They gathered enough XP too pass a level in "each" session.
In the next session, (Where they are facing Nerull's Avatar shapeshifted into Skerrit (Centaur Deity)), they will end the campaign, as I have no real desire to continue putting monster to be butchered...
I dont want to "bend" the rules... I just guess they are too powerfull players.

What do u sugest i do?

Thank you
Icaaro

 

[the Jester]

First of all, custom items are the dm's purview, and the pricing guidelines are just that- guidelines.

A +20 to saves item should cost like a +20 to saves item.

 

[Dragonwriter]

Firstly, Welcome to ENWorld!

Now, on to your question.

This is one of the hazards of Epic play. Unfortunately... It sounds like your players really went crazy, delving for everything they wanted/could use and made pretty potent characters because of it. So, let them go with it. If they skate through this campaign and beat the bad guy before he got to do all the stuff you wanted, so be it.

Or perhaps if/when they beat this Avatar of Nerull, Big Bad Death-Man himself gets mad and goes after them for their insult to his Divine Magnificence (or Inevitability, if you prefer). And if the God of Death himself doesn't make them run in terror, show them what a deity can do. He should have incredible tricks up his bone-filled sleeves... And if they beat him, they just killed Death himself. How does that affect the world/universe? What will the other gods do? Maybe they get scared of these godslayers and set loose the abominations or Advanced (or Classed) Titans to stop these interlopers.

It boils down to Epic play being somewhat over-the-top... So roll with it.

 

[Icaaro]

First of all, custom items are the dm's purview, and the pricing guidelines are just that- guidelines.

A +20 to saves item should cost like a +20 to saves item.

True, but I havent seen nothing wrong with the items, and I checked everything. I even added a "few" restriction, like sacred and profane bonus can't be used at the same time.
I turned back some items like belt of +6 strengh enhancement bonus and +6 strengh luck bonus and +6 strengh competence bonus because the rules indicate that items can only have the enhancement bonus. So the items are all legal. And if they are legal there is no reason for them not to use them.

 

[Icaaro]

Firstly, Welcome to ENWorld!

Now, on to your question.

This is one of the hazards of Epic play. Unfortunately... It sounds like your players really went crazy, delving for everything they wanted/could use and made pretty potent characters because of it. So, let them go with it. If they skate through this campaign and beat the bad guy before he got to do all the stuff you wanted, so be it.

Or perhaps if/when they beat this Avatar of Nerull, Big Bad Death-Man himself gets mad and goes after them for their insult to his Divine Magnificence (or Inevitability, if you prefer). And if the God of Death himself doesn't make them run in terror, show them what a deity can do. He should have incredible tricks up his bone-filled sleeves... And if they beat him, they just killed Death himself. How does that affect the world/universe? What will the other gods do? Maybe they get scared of these godslayers and set loose the abominations or Advanced (or Classed) Titans to stop these interlopers.

It boils down to Epic play being somewhat over-the-top... So roll with it.

True, but that is not the point. The point is that it seems i cant make a decent challenge "at their level". Or else if i do like you say, they will get a level each session. (Maybe that's the way its suposed to be at this levels?) I tried one big bad ass monster twice (cr 32 and cr 39), and several monster at their level and some minions (For example, 3 corruted (Vile Darkness) centaur paragon (Epic Template) cr 20 each, with like 14 or 15 minions plus a Prismasaurs cr 28), making this a ECL 31 fight. And they still "skate" (i like the term) through them.

Should they get a level at each session then? In the end all that matters is they having fun...

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

First of all, starting gold represents the value of a player's gear that he comes in with. The rules explicitly say that it doesn't matter HOW the player acquired these things, just that it will add up to x gp. I often houserule to allow players with craft skills to come in with their own made gear as a reward for having ranks in the skill and because getting cheaper nonmagical items isn't terribly game breaking. I'd never let them come in with self-made magic items from Item Creation feats, though. And if you do, make sure they paid the experience point cost on them and are thus starting a level or more lower than everyone else, depending on how much xp they burned.

Second, you're lucky if these are your only problems so far. Epic is a very crazy power level, and there's no shame in finding that you can't DM it or don't enjoy DMing it. I stay away from it myself. If you're going to run it, DO ban Epic Spellcasting. Letting casters take the feat to get above 9th level spell slots so they can have quickened Meteor Swarms or whatever is fine. But letting them create their own Epic spells with the "seed" system is just utterly broken and unbalanced.

 

[Icaaro]

First of all, starting gold represents the value of a player's gear that he comes in with. The rules explicitly say that it doesn't matter HOW the player acquired these things, just that it will add up to x gp. I often houserule to allow players with craft skills to come in with their own made gear as a reward for having ranks in the skill and because getting cheaper nonmagical items isn't terribly game breaking. I'd never let them come in with self-made magic items from Item Creation feats, though. And if you do, make sure they paid the experience point cost on them and are thus starting a level or more lower than everyone else, depending on how much xp they burned.

Second, you're lucky if these are your only problems so far. Epic is a very crazy power level, and there's no shame in finding that you can't DM it or don't enjoy DMing it. I stay away from it myself. If you're going to run it, DO ban Epic Spellcasting. Letting casters take the feat to get above 9th level spell slots so they can have quickened Meteor Swarms or whatever is fine. But letting them create their own Epic spells with the "seed" system is just utterly broken and unbalanced.

True, i have the wizard with less levels than the other guys. And the other guys bougth the items that way. Like someone else crafted them and they just purchased them via market price. So, i guess it still is within your rulling right? Also, they have no Epic Spells. And no slots above 9th level. The wizard just carries metamagic rods...

 

[Persiflage]

DM'ing a game is hard once you've introduced the Epic Level Joke Book. On the other hand, you can't really expect a monster of "CR X" to be a challenge unless it's played as one; all monsters that really deserve a CR of 20+ need to be played, I'm sorry to say, as NPC's. A really high AC and tons of hit points don't even begin to matter at that level; you're well into playing rocket-launcher tag by then...

I suspect you need to re-consider your role a bit if you want to challenge 25th-level-and-up characters: a great deal of thought is required to come up with something that's a genuine challenge and not just instant TPK or a total pushover.

Still, a powerful spellcasting monster with Shapechange, Antimagic Field and the Extraordinary Spell Aim feat could be a start. Have it tricked out with a demonic companion that can cast Mage's Disjunction at will, just for kicks

 

[Dandu]

Don't do epic if you're not comfortable with it.

It's a mess anyways.

 

[Sunseeker]

I have never dealt with this problem, so, my suggestion would be to play their game. That is, use the "evil clone" scenario, make duplicates of their characters, multiply all their protections by a good large number like 10, and pit them against themselves.