Help price a magic item

[kreynolds]

If I created a Staff that has the same powers as the gloves it would be much more expensive because:

a) I have to include material components
b) all spells must be included at the same casterlevel so all at 9th casterlevel, boosting the cost even more

Damn. You're right. I new I was forgetting something. Forgot about the costly material components. Well, you're right in that a staff would indeed be more expensive, but it's supposed to be. Here's what the staff would look like.

Raise Dead (5 x 9 x 750gp) 33,750gp
Restoration (4 x 9 x 750gp) 27,000gp at 75% = 20,250gp
Cure Serious Wounds (2 x 9 x 750gp) 20,250gp at 50% = 10,125gp
Lesser Restoration (2 x 9 x 750gp) 13,500gp = 6,750gp


Material components
Raise Dead 500gp x 50 = 25,000gp
Restoration 100gp x 50 = 5,000gp

EDIT: Total for the Staff = 100,875gp

Also, because of the costly material components, the gloves will also be 60,000gp more expensive, bringing their total cost to 80,205gp. So, the gloves are still cheaper than the staff, and for obvious reasons.

However, there is one more thing that I didn't calculate, and I left it out on purpose. When you create a staff, you have the option of setting how many charges a particular function consumes per activation. A function that uses two charges per use is calculated at half the cost, and you tend to do this to your more costly functions, which in our case is Raise Dead and Restoration. So, here's the modified, and arguably, properly built staff...

Raise Dead (5 x 9 x 750gp) 33,750gp (2 charges per use) 16,875gp
Restoration (4 x 9 x 750gp) 27,000gp (2 charges per use) 13,500gp at 75% = 10,125gp
Cure Serious Wounds (2 x 9 x 750gp) 20,250gp at 50% = 10,125gp
Lesser Restoration (2 x 9 x 750gp) 13,500gp = 6,750gp

Material components
Raise Dead 500gp x 50 = 25,000gp
Restoration 100gp x 50 = 5,000gp

EDIT: Total = 73,875gp

See what happened? The staff is now cheaper than the gloves.

So why ever create a Staff?

Because, as I already mentioned, you aren't limited to a certain number of uses per day, except by the number of remaing charges in the staff. Charge useage isn't based on the level of the spell, but instead is based upon what you decide (1 or 2 charges, but no more than 2).

The reasons why you would want to create a staff or wondrous item are pretty simple, and mostly has to do with how you want the item to function, what you want it's lifespan to be, and how readily available you want it to be.

1) Staffs are big, hard to conceal. Wondrous Items can be damn near anything you want. Technicaly though, you can make a staff without the staff part, meaning you could just make an amulet that functions like a staff.
2) Staffs are spell-trigger activated, always. This means that over half the classes cannot use the staff (or at least one or more functions). Unless the spell on the staff is on your class spell list,
or you can use the Use Magic Device skill, you can't use it. Wondrous items can use any activation method, and the gloves you wanted priced out use the command-word action, meaning anyone, and I really do mean anyone, can use the gloves, provided they know the command-word.
3) Staffs have a limited supply of charges, always. Once you burn up the 50 charges, you now have a stick. That's it. There's no recharging a staff in the core rules either (though some DMs, including myself, allow charge replenishing, but that's a different topic). Your gloves are not limited to 50 charges. They have unlimited charges, though they are limited to a certain number of uses per day.

Deciding whether or not you would rather have a staff or pair of gloves for this item not only largely has to do with how you want the item to work, but also the theme of the item.

Here's another thing. Staffs are themed, and as the description states, you can't just slap any ol' spell into a staff and call it a day. For instance, you could make a staff of cure light wounds, restoration, and magic missile. That last spell doesn't belong in there. But there's nothing limiting you to the types of spells you can have in a wondrous item, such as these gloves.

Also, here's a useful response from Monte's magic item FAQ...

Since a caster with the Create Wondrous Item feat can create items that perform the same function as potions, wands, rods, and staffs (ointment of cure light wounds -- a la Keoghtom's -- instead of potion of cure light wounds, stone of lightning bolt instead of wand of lighting bolt, etc.) why would anyone, under standard book rules, ever take anything other than the Create Wondrous Items feat?

Here's where the DM's fiat comes in. The general rule is that if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. If a player wants to make an item using Craft Wondrous Item, but it's really more appropriate to a ring or a wand (in the DM's opinion), the DM should rule that it must be the item that he feels is most appropriate.

If a DM wants to be flexible, he should go the other way. Allow a cleric to make her holy symbol into a wand using Craft Wand, or a sword into a staff using Craft Staff. I know there are lots of wondrous items in the DMG that serve as bad examples, because they really should be a wand, a potion, or a rod. Mea culpa.

Make sense?

 

[kreynolds]

Wondrous items work the same way, you can't have a caster level 1 effect on the same item as a caster level 3 effect. The ITEM has a caster level (DMG, p. 241), and that determines its prices.

This would be news to me, and the page you referrence doesn't say this at all. Where does it say this?

 

[Vinyafod]

Ok, thank you all for your input, especially kreynolds.

Still I need something which I can offer my players, giving them the power to restore fallen friends to life. They don't have a cleric or any other divine spellcaster in the party so a scroll or staff won't do. In addition to that they are fairly low level and can't afford too much. Still they need such a device because they won't be able to reach any temple or town without weeks of travel and they tend to die... well.. a lot.
Maybe I will just construct the gloves just like any Staff would be done (having 50 charges) but take the 1800 GP factor for command-word activated instead of the 750 GP for spell-trigger (staffs). That results in just above 200K GP.
Then I'll let the charges of the "stafflike" gloves be almost depleted with only 3 or 4 charges left. That way the item should be cheap enough for them to buy it and it is after all very limited in its uses not enabling them to raise anything they stumble across....

Now let's hope they don't blast the last charges for curing serious wounds.

PS: Just noticed.. kreynolds... a minor mistake in your go at the staff. You used 2 as the spell-level for cure serious wounds. Should have been 3.

 

[Coredump]

I think you have introduced new variables into the discussion.

First, if they are low-level, away in the wilderness, especially with no cleric, it *should* be near impossible to get raised. (maybe in exchange for a quest from the church)

Now, I think it is fairly cheap to get some 'stasis' type items that will let you get the character back to civilization, but I am not sure.

So, the real question (IMO) is "Why are they dying so much?" I think you are looking to solve the symptom, and not the real problem. Are they just being dumb? If so, talk with them about what has happened so they can learn from their mistakes.
If they are not being dumb, it sounds like you are pitting way too difficult encounters against them; maybe you should re-examine them.

But, if you are trying to create an item, just because they are dying too much, there are other problems about.

.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Kreynolds:
It's not very clear, but here's why I said that:
1> The Caster Level is inherent to the item. DMG,p.178: "The caster level determines the item's saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation."

Items can't have multiple caster levels, because that'd give them multiple saving throws/level checks.
Note the "level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item" part. Powers/spells the item uses use the item's caster level (this has been clarified a few times, but I don't have an exact reference, you might check Sage Advice first)

2> (Also p. 178, repeated on p. 241) For items with duplicate a spell exactly, the caster level must be at least what it takes to cast the spell.
For wondrous items, the caster level still can't be less than needed for any prerequisite spell.

3> There are no items in the DMG with different caster levels for different effects, even though for certain items (like Rings) this'd have been MUCH cheaper.

 

[kreynolds]

PS: Just noticed.. kreynolds... a minor mistake in your go at the staff. You used 2 as the spell-level for cure serious wounds. Should have been 3.

Whoops. I updated it, and luckily, it still works out. Thanks for pointing it out though. I totally missed that. Also, I see that I made the same mistake in the gloves up there, but I need to look into what Spatzimaus said before I update that one.

 

[kreynolds]

Kreynolds:
It's not very clear, but here's why I said that:
1> The Caster Level is inherent to the item. DMG,p.178: "The caster level determines the item's saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation."

Items can't have multiple caster levels, because that'd give them multiple saving throws/level checks.
Note the "level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item" part. Powers/spells the item uses use the item's caster level (this has been clarified a few times, but I don't have an exact reference, you might check Sage Advice first)

2> (Also p. 178, repeated on p. 241) For items with duplicate a spell exactly, the caster level must be at least what it takes to cast the spell.
For wondrous items, the caster level still can't be less than needed for any prerequisite spell.

3> There are no items in the DMG with different caster levels for different effects, even though for certain items (like Rings) this'd have been MUCH cheaper.

Rod of Wonder.

 

[kreynolds]

*bump*

Any thoughts? Anybody?

 

[Vinyafod]

The Rod of Wonder definitely has different powers with different casterlevles.

The Slow effect seems to be at 10th caster level (effect lasts 10 rounds, duration of slow is rounds/ level ) like the rod itself.
The Fireball and Lightningbolt semm to be at 6th caster level (6d6 dmg each, although the lightingbolts range does not match that).
Last but not least the spell Flesh to Stone is a 6th level spell so minimum caster level 11th.

Another example where the item's caster level differs from the spells involved is the Broom of Fyling. The item itself has a caster level of 5. It's prerequisites include the spell Permanency a 5th level spell with a minimum caster level of 9.

In addition to that I can't find anything in the DMG or elsewhere, where it says all spells in an item must have the same casterlevel. An exception to that are staffs... but think about it... why would they include the rule in the paragraph about staffs if it was mandatory for all items?

Also, only wands and staffs have effects which need to be based on caster levels. Take a look at the wondrous items. It always says: This item does this, for that long, that often. There is never any variables in their description. All is set and done. You will never come into the situation when you need to look up a caster level of a wondrous item because you want to know how long its effects last.
Wands and Staffs on the other hand duplicate spells. They have spells stored in them which are "set free" upon command. They come out of the Staff or Wand exactly the way they were put in there. Wands have only one single spell stored in them.. hence.. spells caster level = items caster level. Staffs have multiple spells in them and there and only there we have the rule that all spells must have the same caster level.

Well.. just my go at it. Hope you were able to understand what i wanted to say... somehow...