Help us with the Avadnu Primer get free stuff!!!

[JVisgaitis]

We're finally putting the screws to the Avadnu Primer, and we have a little bit of an internal debate on how to approach some areas of the product. Initially, when we were going to print with it, it was going to be a 128 page full color hardcover. Currently with the state of the industry and our financial situation, we're taking the "better safe then sorry approach." If it sells well, it will see print, so no problems there.

So what I need feedback on is the approach of the crunch portion of the book. To survive as a campaign setting, we initially planned on making it somewhat generic to fit easier into an existing d20 System game. What we are thinking of now is because it will be a PDF we can make it longer and take a bit more liberty with the product as we would prefer, but this would take it further away from the core ruleset and possibly alienate some people from the product.

What I want to know is what would you rather see? A campaign setting developed which introduced more rules sub-systems, base classes, and other tidbits or should we keep it as close to core as possible and leave all of the cool bits for a later product? Personally, I'd rather do all the cool bits upfront, because if we don't we kinda set a precedent as a generic setting book using the core rules.

And to encourgage people to give me their opinions, I'll throw in a free PDF of either Legends of Avadnu or Digital Denizens: Challenge Rating One. Your choice.

Thanks!!

 

[Crothian]

Why don't you do both? When it comes to the rules have a section that has all the sub systems and things that you want but then place in an appendix that uses your world with only the core classes to show how it would be done that way. As long as you are not concerned about space have your cake and eat it too!!

 

[Voadam]

I enjoyed having the crunchy class stuff in the setting book for Forgotten Realms.

Kalamar went the other way with a crunch free setting book and class specific ones. I have not chosen to get the Kalamar one, although I have considered the support books.

In general I am not looking for a new setting but new bits like classes and feats mixed into a setting still appeals to me.

 

[Lalato]

We're finally putting the screws to the Avadnu Primer, and we have a little bit of an internal debate on how to approach some areas of the product. Initially, when we were going to print with it, it was going to be a 128 page full color hardcover. Currently with the state of the industry and our financial situation, we're taking the "better safe then sorry approach." If it sells well, it will see print, so no problems there.

So what I need feedback on is the approach of the crunch portion of the book. To survive as a campaign setting, we initially planned on making it somewhat generic to fit easier into an existing d20 System game. What we are thinking of now is because it will be a PDF we can make it longer and take a bit more liberty with the product as we would prefer, but this would take it further away from the core ruleset and possibly alienate some people from the product.

What I want to know is what would you rather see? A campaign setting developed which introduced more rules sub-systems, base classes, and other tidbits or should we keep it as close to core as possible and leave all of the cool bits for a later product? Personally, I'd rather do all the cool bits upfront, because if we don't we kinda set a precedent as a generic setting book using the core rules.

And to encourgage people to give me their opinions, I'll throw in a free PDF of either Legends of Avadnu or Digital Denizens: Challenge Rating One. Your choice.

Thanks!!

I think that you should throw in the major rule changes. I think that Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed/Evolved is a good model. The original book had some setting material and it had new classes and a new magic system. Later, Arcana Evolved added more to the setting and a few more rules changes.

Of course, you could go for the Blue Rose model. Change the rules radically so that they fit the flavor of the setting. One thing to keep in mind here is that Blue Rose is mostly a simplification of the d20 rules. There aren't any major new mechanics. That's why I think it works in that case.

Anyway... my vote is the AU/E model. Introduce the major changes and come back later and add the minor details and flourishes. Otherwise you may never get this thing out the door.

--sam

 

[Tinner]

Personally I would like to see all the setting specific crunchy bits right up front.
If it's kept very close to the core ... well, I already have the core rules. What sets this game apart from the core?
I would also believe that adding in the unique stuff is going to draw interest to your product. Even if someone isn't planning on buying into your setting, there might be some innovative class, sub-system or other crunch that catches their eye. That's the kind of stuff that can change a browser into a buyer.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

As for radical changes: These are OK, but they should not be changes for change's sake. If you have some cool ideas that require a bigger change, go for it, but don't change the core rules just so you have a different rule than the core rules.

As for Campaign Setting "core book" and rules stuff: I have seen and enjoyed both: Midnight, for example, has only the necessary rules changes in the core book but has a Players' Guide sort of book that introduces more. That is not to say that there were few rules in the Midnight core book - far from it, but they were all necessary. So I think that you should put all the necessary rules stuff - new or altered base classes, races, equipment, changes to the rules as written, etc in the core book, and then fill with a lot of general info - big organizations, races, nations, info about life, geography, history, cosmology, magic, all that stuff. Add some new spells and PrC's for good measure, but don't choke the book with it, and make these new bits of material unique and characteristic of the setting. And then you can release a Players' Guide - with a ton of feats, spells, PrC's, more of the same as seen in the core book (if you introduce a new mechanic like FR's regional feats, rokugans ancestral feats or midnights heroic paths, put a good amount in the core book but even more in the players' guide).

One important thing: The thing that really makes the game world different is the fluff, not the crunch. I don't say crunch is bad - far from it, I love that stuff, but don't let the fluff get cut short because of crunch, especially not in the Campaign Setting core book. Don't leave out critical fluffy stuff (like details on the changes to magic that are important to the new campaign, or the changes to the races) just to squeeze another PrC in there.

Oh, and another thing: Mix some fluff into the crunch. Not directly into the usual write-up, but next to it. So if you have a new mechanic like "destiny feats", precede each feat with a little story, a short info about heroes with that, or something like that.

 

[JoeGKushner]

If going PDF first, then I see no reason why not to include the 'crunch' of the game system in fairly generic bits with specific bits as needed to support it.

The Player's Guide to Arcanis for example does this. Take a look at their monk orders.

Or the Player's Guide to Kalamar.

Or the Player's Guide to the Forgotten Realms.

Heck, even the original Arcana Unearthed is in many ways a book of crunch for the Diamond Throne setting.

Get the new races, character classes, feats, spells in one section and the PrCs and other unique monsters, gods, and demon lords (void lords) in another.

 

[Insight]

If you're going PDF and not print (at this time), you might be better off creating a product that is 100% compatible with existing d20 (let's call it the 'generic' version) and then offering an optional product with 'Native Avadnu' rules. This second product would only be rule changes and not any setting details outside of materials needed to understand the rule changes (or perhaps better explain the rule changes).

That way, people who like your setting but aren't interested in your rule changes can pick up the 'generic' book without too much trouble, and those who are interested in your rule changes can get both without feeling bad about reprinted setting material.

You could even offer a bundle with both for a discount if you're willing to go that route.

 

[Turjan]

We're finally putting the screws to the Avadnu Primer, and we have a little bit of an internal debate on how to approach some areas of the product. Initially, when we were going to print with it, it was going to be a 128 page full color hardcover.

So what I need feedback on is the approach of the crunch portion of the book. To survive as a campaign setting, we initially planned on making it somewhat generic to fit easier into an existing d20 System game. What we are thinking of now is because it will be a PDF we can make it longer and take a bit more liberty with the product as we would prefer, but this would take it further away from the core ruleset and possibly alienate some people from the product.

Well, I don't know what to expect in detail from your setting, but if it's not very focussed on a small area, 128 pages seems a bit sparse for a new setting book. Did you give the book to some people who are not involved with your setting and asked them what they thought?

The question for crunch is a bit difficult. Does you setting need crunch that exceeds a few prestige classes to make it work or interesting? Do you have interesting new mechanics like, e.g., Morningstar (one example of a setting book that was way too short, and this to an extent it felt incomplete)? I generally like a mix of setting information with a bit of crunch, but with a definite emphasis on world description. Just make sure the product feels complete .

 

[carpedavid]

I'm of the opinion that if you have really nifty fluff, then you should include the crunch to explain it. Crunch can always be abstracted by interested users, but it's the fluff that makes the setting. Besides, including new fluffy ways to use crunch is one of the things I most enjoy about reading new campaign settings.