Help with a druid PC...

[IndyPendant]

Hi guys, I need a little help. I have a *great* player who's a terrific roleplayer--and a terrific tactician too. Playing a druid.

It's a high-magic campaign, and so far I've been having only a leetle trouble challenging them--but there's one issue I'm finding unbalancing, with signs that it will only get worse as the character levels up.

Currently she's a level 8 druid. What one of her favourite tactics is is to Wild Shape into a Brown Bear, ending up with, for combat stats: +14(!!!)/+14(!!!)/+9, doing 1d8+8/1d8+8/2d6+4 (claw/claw/bite). Now, that's bad enough, but it's the grapple that's the real killer. On *either* successful claw attack--which, at level 8 with a +14, is an almost-certainty--she can initiate a grapple check. Her grapple modifier? A +18!(!!!!!)

Let's see. A level 8 half-orc barbarian, raging, with maxed str and Gauntlets of Ogre Power, has a BAB of +8 and a Str mod of +9 (20 Str start, +2 due to levels, +2 due to gaunts, +4 rage)--making it so that he doesn't quite match her for grapple checks--and that's about the maximum I can get for *any* char of that level!

What. The. F(Censored for a public forum.)

Thank god the char doesn't have Power Attack, so at least it can (barely!) be outdamaged!

The bear also has a high AC from +1 Wild Leaf Armour (some special thing that acts as Studded Leather; the addition +1 over leather is no biggie, and she paid thru the nose for it), the Bear's +5 Natural Armour, Dex 12, and constantly-cast Barkskin. She often has Cat's Grace as well. In total, that's 25 AC. The fact that she loses her dex bonus while grappling is laughably pathetic.

So basically what she's been doing is grappling the BBEG fighter-type. Instant out-of-the-battle. All the BBEG fighter can suddenly do is punch. Period. That's it. Done deal, all over, buhbye now.

And as a tank, she kicks butt. I can't create a tank that has the same AC, attack, and damage at 8th level that she does. At best, all I can do is get (if I'm lucky) two out of three.

I'm just wondering if there's something I'm missing. I'm pretty sure this is all by-the-book, and not even bending any rules, since I took a careful look myself.

I'm also looking for ideas on tactics on how to handle this monster. I have some of my own (copious usage of Dispels, never EVER again having just one combat-oriented BBEG, a few others), but I'm curious: others have to have had this druid problem. How did you deal with it--without necessarily nerfing the char?

Thanks.

Edit: Her grapple mod is actually +18, not +16...

 

[Diirk]

Take a generic fighter type, 16 str +8 BAB = 11 grapple check. Now have him enlarged (+4 size, +1 str), improved grapple (+4) and all of a sudden he's up to a +20 grapple check. Finally if he knows the party's usual tactics, give him some +1 animal bane armour spikes

The bear damage looks impressive at first, however if you start throwing them at things with material/alignment DR (golems, demons/devils, fey, vampires etc) druids really have no easy way to defeat that.. that will slow him down alot.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I would also not that is a lot of buffing and resources for an AC that is not really all that good for someone on the front line. How well does he do standing next to a Hill Giant?

You are hitting levels where PC specialists can clean the clock of some standard challenges. High magic has accelerated this. You have to throw Enlarge Person and similar magic on your NPCs if you want to keep up.

There are many kinds of PCs who could take down that Raging Barbarian. The buffed up Druid is just one of them. If this were a Cleric or Wizard, they would just use Hold Person.

BTW, consider throwing in the occasional NPC with Close Quarter Fighting. IMO it is almost a "must have" for melee PCs in the mid levels. A few NPCs may think the same thing. Slapping the Druid for ~20 points damage for attempting the Improved Grab will make him a bit less cocky.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Boy are you going to be upset next level when your Druid starts casting Animal Growth after Wildshaping...Also, you may want to consider Freedom of Movement, which makes its beneficiary immune to grapples.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Does Close Quarters Fighting really help against creatures with Improved Grab?

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Does Close Quarters Fighting really help against creatures with Improved Grab?

If you can hit with the AoO, it surely does.

From the POV of a PC, creatures with Improved Grab are usually high offense & low defense. When you go toe-to-toe with such a beast, it is a footrace to see who can dish out enough damage to make the other drop first. If CQF keeps you out of the grapple, fabulous. But even one extra clean hit can help a lot if you are grappled, because now your buddies have to rescue you. A single AoO is not a small bonus in these situations. It is conceivable you will get more than one.

 

[Liquidsabre]

Does Close Quarters Fighting really help against creatures with Improved Grab?

Oh yes. Dealing damage to increase your grapple check to resist being grappled = good! Though for multiple attacks it helps to have combat reflexes!

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

No, what I mean is, are you certain the rules are written in such a way that CQF works against the free-action grapple check to establish a hold that Improved Grab offers?

I've not read the feat, so I'm not sure what, exactly, is accomplishes.

 

[Liquidsabre]

I'm just wondering if there's something I'm missing. I'm pretty sure this is all by-the-book, and not even bending any rules, since I took a careful look myself.

I think the only thing you might be missing is that you are the DM and not a player character, so why are you trying to use NPC builds to try and match this Druid character? Druids are butch, but whip out a big nasty monster and the Druid is cake with icing on top. Put down the PHB (leave that to the players) and pick up your MM and start checking out some single CR 9-10 creatures and start looking at groups of CR 6-8 creatures to challenge this party with. If one or two encoutners don't seem challenging enough try 5 or 6 encounters, all of them small, but they drain away at the groups resources - leaving their last encounter a tough battle (since the Druid has already used all their wildshapes for the day) with the CR 9 creature who has been hunting them for killing they're tribe members...

I wouldn't worry about it too much, so the Druid has some power to him, that's nice for the party to have - maybe it'll allow them to make some real accomplishments in the game world. That's great for story-telling but eventually a big nasty villain is going to rear his ugly head to oppose the growing power of these individuals, one way or another. Ultimately it's not the DM that challenges player characters (that would be adversarial) but NPCs, creatures, and events in the game world that will ultimately be there to challenge the player characters in a realistic way.

 

[Liquidsabre]

No, what I mean is, are you certain the rules are written in such a way that CQF works against the free-action grapple check to establish a hold that Improved Grab offers?

I've not read the feat, so I'm not sure what, exactly, is accomplishes.

The feat uses the Improved Grab special ability as an example of the use of the CQF feat.