Help with advancing monsters (my players please stay out)

[Gregor]

My players please stay out (this means you BobROE)










Hey there,

I am hoping that some of the wise DMs / Players here can assist me.

I am new to advancing / improving monsters and I was wondering if I have done the following advancement correctly. I am trying to advance a troglodyte from CR 1 to CR 3 by improving its HD and using the elite ability score array. How does this look?:

Improved Troglodyte

Medium Humanoid (Reptilian)
Hit Dice: 6d8+18 (45 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 20 (+1 Dex, +6 natural, +3 Studded Leather (masterwork)), touch 11, flat-footed 19
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+7
Attack: Claw +8 melee (1d6+3) or javelin +5 ranged (1d6+3)
Full Attack: 2 claws +8 melee (1d6+3) and bite +5 melee (1d4+3); or javelin +5 ranged (1d6+3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Stench (DC16)
Special Qualities: Darkvision 90 ft.
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +3, Will +1
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 11, Wis 8, Cha 10
Skills: Hide +5*, Listen +5, Spot +3, Tumble+5, Speak Language (common)
Feats: Multiattack(bonus), Weapon Focus (Claw), Improved Natural Attack (claw), Power Attack.

Before ability score adjustment due to race and ability increases due to HD advancement: Str 15, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 8, Cha 10


Edited entry due to feedback.

I wanted the monster to be relatively feral so he still uses his natural weapons as his primary mode of attack, but due to his improved strength and toughness, his claws are also larger and sharper (improved natural attack). Due to a recent deal struck with some nefarious villains, the troglodytes have gained access to armor...in exchange for something the troglodytes stole from a nearby cottage-community. So I gave him light armor proficiency to represent his learning to use the new armor. Masterwork Studded Leather freed up the feat, so right now its Power Attack - drop his attack by 2, and he still strikes at +6 on the claws and does 1d6+5...not too shabby.

Please keep the feedback coming.

 

[frankthedm]

Yeah, about right. Not having reach and only a 15 STR is going to make the fight more of a drawn out brawl rather than the splatter or be splattered situation an ogre prsents.

A lot of humaniod monsters really don't advance by HD, but this one won't run away with it's CR.

Scope out my warrior-troglizards in my monster thread BTW.

 

[Gregor]

Thanks Frank,

I thought about class levels, but I wanted the trog to just be the largest trog in the group as opposed to a skilled fighter or barbarian. I checked out your trogwarrior guys, pretty cool and a pretty sick AC for their CR.

Here is a question: I added 4 HD, making him a 6HD humanoid. Does that increase warrant a +1 to an ability score? Further, does a humanoid who advances via HD gain additional feats?

Cheers.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I thought about class levels, but I wanted the trog to just be the largest trog in the group as opposed to a skilled fighter or barbarian. I checked out your trogwarrior guys, pretty cool and a pretty sick AC for their CR.

How about giving him a level of fighter (or two warrior) and increasing his size to Large? You can still use the elite array (it's included in the CR for the character class) and you get +1 CR for Large. That really makes him the largest trog in the group instead of just the beefiest.

Here is a question: I added 4 HD, making him a 6HD humanoid. Does that increase warrant a +1 to an ability score? Further, does a humanoid who advances via HD gain additional feats?

Yes to feats, not sure about abilities.

 

[frankthedm]

Thanks Frank,

I thought about class levels, but I wanted the trog to just be the largest trog in the group as opposed to a skilled fighter or barbarian. I checked out your trogwarrior guys, pretty cool and a pretty sick AC for their CR.

Here is a question: I added 4 HD, making him a 6HD humanoid. Does that increase warrant a +1 to an ability score? Further, does a humanoid who advances via HD gain additional feats?

Cheers.

Armor prof. is the main thing that keep warrior levels useful.

+1 to an ability score at 4th HD, +1 feat at 3HD & 6 HD, +2 skill points per HD [class skills listed in description.

Ability Score Improvement
Treat monster Hit Dice the same as character level for determining ability score increases. This only applies to Hit Dice increases, monsters do not gain ability score increases for levels they "already reached" with their racial Hit Dice, since these adjustments are included in their basic ability scores.

 

[Gregor]

How about giving him a level of fighter (or two warrior) and increasing his size to Large? You can still use the elite array (it's included in the CR for the character class) and you get +1 CR for Large. That really makes him the largest trog in the group instead of just the beefiest.

Hey Inifiniti,

Ya I thought about the large thing, but when I was looking at size increases, it said that the monster's advancement entry in the MM would state its increase. Under Trog, it just said by character level (where other monsters have HD requirements before an increase in size) so I thought under RAW I couldent increase the size of the Trog.

But then again, Im new to this so maybe you're right. I'll take another look.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Gregor]

Armor prof. is the main thing that keep warrior levels useful.

+1 to an ability score at 4th HD, +1 feat at 3HD & 6 HD, +2 skill points per HD [class skills listed in description.

Ability Score Improvement
Treat monster Hit Dice the same as character level for determining ability score increases. This only applies to Hit Dice increases, monsters do not gain ability score increases for levels they "already reached" with their racial Hit Dice, since these adjustments are included in their basic ability scores.

Thanks again Frank!

so a feat at 3HD and 6HD. Now in the MM, it says:"Racial Feats: A troglodyte’s humanoid levels give it one feat. A troglodyte receives Multiattack as a bonus feat." The trog in the MM has 2HD. So its still two new feats?

I'll probably improve his strength to make him slightly harder hitting and use the feats, for fluff reasons, to give him access to armor. I still want to go without class levels, but thats purely for story reasons...

 

[frankthedm]

Under Trog, it just said by character level (where other monsters have HD requirements before an increase in size) so I thought under RAW I couldn't increase the size of the Trog.

You are the DM, the RAW applies to you when you see fit, most often in front of the PCs. TBH even if you Advance a trog to large, you might be cutting the critter short on it's CR since it has to measure up to the Minotaur and is vunerable to several spells most monsters of it's CR is immune to.

The main reason a lot of monsters don't advance by size is because it won't be helpful to them.

Increasing Size...
...Be careful, though. Monsters that benefit from a smaller size may actually lose effectiveness because of a size increase. Monsters that don’t benefit from size increases don’t advance in that manner for this reason.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Ya I thought about the large thing, but when I was looking at size increases, it said that the monster's advancement entry in the MM would state its increase. Under Trog, it just said by character level (where other monsters have HD requirements before an increase in size) so I thought under RAW I couldent increase the size of the Trog.

I'm less concerned about RAW when advancing monsters because the guidelines printed are mostly guidelines. That's why the text uses words like "usually advance" and "typically" and so forth. Making the trog truly Large would be a shock to many players, I assure you, and Large definitely increases the trog's effectiveness because trogs are melee creatures primarily. Note that he will gain a lot of strength (+8), a lot of Con (+4), and more than enough natural armor (+3) to offset the Dex/size AC penalties.

If you give him two levels of warrior, he'll gain armor proficiency and a lot more hit points (the +4 con helps a lot with those two levels), but he'll have the non-elite array. Two levels of warrior also give him a feat and a stat boost. One level of fighter gives him two feats (one of them bonus) but no stat boost, but he then gets the elite array.

There a lot of ways to improve this guy, but it all depends on your desired outcome. If any of these options seem too powerful, the guidelines also suggest increase the CR (it's a guidelines after all), at which point you can just stick with it (more XP for the PCs) or bring down the power level a little.

 

[Gregor]

Hey Infiniti,

Thanks a ton for the suggestions. I agree that a large trogolodyte would be sweet and would totally shock my players. However, like you said, it depends on my desired outcome and it doesnt really fit with what I have in mind. I want the shock value to come from the fact that the trog has learned to speak common, is smarter than the rest of his kin, has learned to use "civilized" armor, and has entered into a deal with another party.

That being said, take a look at the entry in my first post (I edited it) to match more what I want out of the creature. I also wrote a very concise synopsis of why he is built the way he is. He'll probably square off against the PCs with a pet monitor lizard. That should roughly be an EL 5 for my party of 3rd level adventurers.

What do you think?