Help with CR

[Tahlilian]

I'm Taking over DMing, I need to know the proper CR for 4- 9th characters.

Here are the PC's

Fighter 5/ ranger 4

Cleric 9

Druid 9

Fighter 4/rogue 3/ duelist 2


I was looking some CR 11-12 monsters but wasn't sure if they could handle them. Plus we run a high magic item campaign.

 

[Sekhmet]

If they're just average PCs, a CR 9 encounter should take about 25% of their total daily resources.

As it is a high magic campaign, if you're just reading monsters out of the book, CR10-11 are perfectly fine for a ECL9 group.

 

[parinho7]

you can use this encounter calculator

 

[Tahlilian]

Thanks guys, I used 2-CR 8 giants the other night, the PC's just mopped the floor with them.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

The CR system is a bit borked mostly due to the differences between mundanes and casters. This is one of the reasons dragons are often regarded as being more challenging than their CR would suggest.

If your party is mopping the floor with mundanes, toss an "equal level" caster at them and see how they do.

 

[Sekhmet]

Thanks guys, I used 2-CR 8 giants the other night, the PC's just mopped the floor with them.

Throwing low CR monsters at a group that is higher level is silly. Instead of taking 10-15% of their resources, nothing is expended (or very little is).
With a high magic campaign, where items are plentiful (as you've suggested), it is an even worse idea.

Consider using the "Controller/Leader and his allies" approach to enemies, having one enemy who is 2-3 CR higher than the party's average ECL who is controlling a group of enemies at party ECL.

Ideally, the controller/leader will buff his allies, debuff the party, and control the battlefield, while the main force defends the leader.

 

[udalrich]

Also note that an equal ECL fight is actually a fairly easy fight. Assuming that the CR's are accurate (which is not certain), imagine cloning one of the party members, and having the full party fight the clone. That's about what an equal ECL fight is.

If you repeat that 4 times, you are probably getting close to running the party out of daily resources. That is, the spell casters are probably out (or almost out) of level 3-5 spells. The fighters might be low on hit points because the cleric doesn't have the spells to heal him. A barbarian would probably have zero or one rages left.

An ECL 13 encounter (average party level + 4) should be a fair fight if it's the only fight of the day, and who wins would depend on how well everyone is optimized for that type of opponent, whom the terrain favors and how well everyone rolls.

ECL 11 would be challenging (and they really wouldn't want to do more than two in a single day without using limited resources like scrolls and potions), but there should be little danger of the party losing unless they are stupid.

When you create a higher ECL encounter, you do want to combine several monsters, rather than have a single very high level monster, for several reason.

First, a single monster will only get one action per round, while the party will get four. That many extra actions can often overwhelm a single opponent.

Secondly, a single monster often means that a very strong attack ends up being focused on one party member, who could easily end up dead with bad luck.

Lastly, the defenses and offenses can be too much for a lower level party. SR of CR+11 means a 50/50 chance for the spell casters if the monsters CR is the same as the party's level, but only 30% if it's CR is four higher. An ability that requires a 7th level spell to counter is not going to be available to a 9th level party.

 

[lordxaviar]

Ecl

my prolem is in reverse, I am working on a 1st ed mod and there is an encounter with 30 cr 2 and 1 cr 4 and 12 cr 3

now in 1st ed it was set for 5-6 5-7th Lv
for 3.5 its more of 4 7-9 or 8 6-8th it is giant ants which played correctly can be a very encounter especially with cliffs.

however what I am wondering is how do you figure the ECL? I have other examples in the thread i posted.... but this one has all the brains...


thanx

 

[anest1s]

Thanks guys, I used 2-CR 8 giants the other night, the PC's just mopped the floor with them.

Throwing low CR monsters at a group that is higher level is silly. Instead of taking 10-15% of their resources, nothing is expended (or very little is).
With a high magic campaign, where items are plentiful (as you've suggested), it is an even worse idea.

Consider using the "Controller/Leader and his allies" approach to enemies, having one enemy who is 2-3 CR higher than the party's average ECL who is controlling a group of enemies at party ECL.

Ideally, the controller/leader will buff his allies, debuff the party, and control the battlefield, while the main force defends the leader.

2 CR 8 Giants are an EL 10...it was expected that the party would beat them easily*. However after them they should have to beat an other EL 10 and then an other one, and then an other. Before they are allowed to rest.

You can send them in waves if you want to make it just one combat, leaving just a few rounds between them for rest. This should raise the EL a bit too, but it works better than allowing the PCs to rest whenever they want.

Everyday (or well, every day they fight anything at all) the party should fight 4 encounters equal to their party level. You can put one encounter +2 higher than their level, but it takes up 2 of the normal encounters of the day. You can remove a normal encounter and replace it with 2 of the party's level -2.

For example your party in one day should face:
-4 EL 9
-2 EL 9 + 1 EL 11
-2 EL 7 + 3 EL 9
-4 EL 7 + 2 EL 9
-4 EL 7 + 1 EL 11
-8 EL 5 + 2 EL 7 + 1 EL 9
etc


*If you roll two crits in a row it gets pretty dangerous though.

EDIT: Also everything that is more than +2 higher than your party level can turn with someone dead. Unless if you fudge or something.