Help with designing a Crusader (Bo9S)

[EroGaki]

I would like some help making a crusader for an up coming Age of Worms game. We start at 9th level, and I rolled the following stats: 16, 15, 14, 14, 13, 12. There are a few things to keep in mind:

1. We are using the Pathfinder RPG (3.5 material available with DM approval)
2. We are playing in the Ebberon setting.
3. All of the PC's are playing warforged. The DM modified them to fit with Pathfinder rules: stats are +2 to Strength and Con, -2 to Charisma, and they lose their light fortification.
4. The DM is allowing Bo9S material, but he doesn't like the recovery mechanics, so he nerfed them; effectively, all 3 of the base classes use the swordsage method of recovering maneuvers: spend a full round action to recover one maneuver.

I have it in my mind to try and play a tank; crusaders, from what I understand, are one of the most effective tank classes in 3.5. But I am worried that with the recovery method being used, much of their durability will vanish. Am I right, or is it still possible?

The rest of the party consists of a psion, druid, and ranger/rogue. The psion will act as healer with the psionic repair construct power.

Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks

 

[Runestar]

Try this, it is one of the few crusader builds I could find which is not so dependent on maneuvers, but rather, focuses on the synergy between delayed damage pool, furious counterstrike and AoOs.

Also known as "Tess the Molestress" build from the CO boards.

Race: Human
Preferred Weapon: anything good for TWFing
Progression Hide Class - Feat

1. Crusader 1 - Two-Weapon Fighting, Combat Reflexes
   Crusader 2
   Crusader 3 - Spinning Sword proficiency (the Spinning Sword is from Secrets of Sarlona)
   Crusader 4
   Crusader 5
   Crusader 6 - Stand Still
   Crusader 7
   Crusader 8
   Crusader 9 - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
   Crusader 10 - Die Hard
   Crusader 11
   Crusader 12 - Robilar's Gambit
   Crusader 13
   Crusader 14
   Crusader 15 - Defensive Sweep
   Crusader 16
   Crusader 17
   Crusader 18 - Greater Two-Weapon Fighting (alternatives: Mage Slayer or Supernatural Reflexes)
   Crusader 19
   Crusader 20
   
   
   
   Essential Manuvers and Stances Hide Maneuver or stance name, level discipline and type, character level at which it is received
   
   Martial Spirit, 1st level Devoted Spirit stance, gained at level 1
   Defensive Rebuke, 3rd level Devoted Spirit boost, 5
   Thicket of Blades, 3rd level Devoted Spirit stance, level 8
   Tactics of the Wolf, 3rd level White Raven stance, level 14
   
   
   Highlights
   1st level: Another strong start, as per the Molester siblings. TWF and Combat Reflexes give you a good number of attacks for 1st level, and in Martial Spirit stance that means you'll be healing pretty quickly.
   3rd level: For those without SoS, the Spinning Sword is basically a longsword with spiked chain reach. You can now TWF and still have a lovely threatened area (it's okay if your off hand weapon is a short sword, you only need one spinning sword to threaten that area).
   6th level: You now have Defensive Rebuke and can stop foes in their tracks with Stand Still. THERE IS NO RUNNING AWAY.
   9th level: Last level you got Thicket of Blades, and your delayed damage pool is more than big enough to pay for TWF penalties through Furious Counterstrike.
   12th level: Now HERE's where all the synergy comes together. Crusaders are natural TWFers what with Furious Counterstrike adding lots of damage and overcoming the penalties, plus Martial Spirit stance naturally synergizing with lots of attacks - switch between Martial Spirit and Thicket of Blades as your hitpoints dictate. What Robilar's does is give you a lovely means of powering the TWF/Furious Counterstrike engine to devastating effect. He attacks you, you take damage and boost FC, you attack back but faster, healing the damage that goes past your delayed damage pool, and generally being harder to kill than something out of a horror movie.
   15th level: We finally got Tactics of the Wolf last level for synergizing with TWF; the Crusader's stance progression makes the baby Jesus cry. With Defensive Sweep, you can now catch foes in a no-win situation outside of Robilar's. The build is more or less complete. I went full Crusader to max out the Furious Counterstrike potential as soon as possible; you may want to do something different with the last 4 levels if you take Tess as your own.
   
   For those not interested in TWF: you might be interested in taking those 18th level alternatives earlier instead, and maybe EWP: Spiked Chain instead of Spinning Sword proficiency.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Adaptive Style is a required feat for a Swordsage. Since you're stuck with their recovery mechanic, it is now a required feat for you. Heck, a Swordsage at least has a chance of going a fight without running out of maneuvers readied. You get half the number he does, roughly. I am curious if this means the whole "maneuvers granted" category is gone for you. I'd hope it was, but just checking.

You should make sure if the healing strikes will work to full effect on the party. Since you're all Warforged, getting some modified version of the Devoted Spirit healing abilities seems like a reasonable thing to ask for.

Abilities: IF you want ot control the area around you well, you actually want a decent dex, even if you go for a heavy armor type of tank. Since you're using CMB/CMD, dex also factors into your CMD.
I'd say... (after racial mods)
Str 18 (from 16), Dex 15, Con 16 (from 14), Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 12 (from 14).
That gives you enough Int for the Combat Expertise line if you need it, and seems a pretty solid array. I'd up dex to 16 at level 4 and then focus on str for future level up ability bonuses.

Feats: Adaptive Style at level 1, or at least by the starting level of 9. Non-negotiable. See if you can get the 3.5 Stand Still feat. If not, the PF version will do. Of course you'll want Combat Reflexes, and the Step Up feat from PF is great for keeping an enemy in melee with you. I like Stone Power for tanking (you can use it so that it absorbs damage just as your steely resolve is set to move onto your real hp), at later levels the up to 10 temp hp may start seeming insignificant, though, and you're already starting pretty high. Exotic Weapon Prof (Spiked Chain) is rather pointless in Pathfinder the way they nerfed it, you may as well just find a good 2H reach martial weapon and use armor spikes or a spiked guantlet with it.

Stances: The best stance available at the moment is Thicket of Blades, for battlefield control. In a few levels, when you don't need BFC so much, I realy enjoy the level 6 lawful Devoted Spirit stance, to take 11 once/round. Never miss on a maneuver again! Alternatively, the chaos stance can lead to crazy damage with maneuver damage dice. Whatever you do, make sure to have a L or C crusader, those alignments seem to get a lot of the best toys, good and evil not so much. For the two level 1 stances, I like Leading the Charge as a general purpose party buff and because it allows entry for White Raven Tactics and/or Battle Leader's Charge without having to actually learn any of the yucky level 1 WR maneuvers. For the other level 1 stance...Iron Guard's Glare is kinda redundant with Thicket and not as good. Martial Spirit is still interesting, but not giving enough healing to be very useful anymore. I'd take the Stone Dragon one.
Another option: Press the Advantage for 10 ft steps instead of 5 ft steps is a nice thing to have, I'm just not sure it can compare to taking 11 on attack rolls or getting AoOs even on Withdrawals and 5 ft steps.

You need to pick which discplines you want to focus towards. You can dabble in all three, but lack the maneuvers to get more than a few in all of them. I find it best to focus on two. No matter what you do, get White Raven Tactics, it's the best maneuver in the game. For level 9 precisely, Divine Surge is still probably the best damaging maneuver available at that level (+8d8), even though it's only a level 4 maneuver and you have access to level 5.

 

[Dandu]

Is the condition of a poor houserule getting you down? Has a bad recovery mechanic affected you negatively?

To solve those problems and more, I recommend IRON! HEART! SURGE!

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I feel tempted to mention Stormguard Warrior.

Unless he multiclasses with Warblade, that's quite a few feats. And considering how the DM already nerfed the other two adept classes despite the fact they're playing Pathfinder (a system where practically every class except the Druid got boosts), I'm not sure cheesing Stormguard Warrior for massive damage is a good idea for a player to do, etiquette-wise.

EDIT: Bah! You editted your post as I was replying!

 

[Dandu]

That's why I edited my response.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Another alternative is to just make a Swordsage. Then the nerf doesn't really affect you anymore. A Swordsage can still be a good tank. In the sense of having a good AC, especially touch AC. They also get lots of counters from Setting Sun (and a very nice One With Shadow counter at high level Shadow Hand) to make them annoying to attack.

You just won't have the easy battlefield control options of the Crusader, but you'll be a much more mobile and versatile combatant.

 

[EroGaki]

Is the condition of a poor houserule getting you down? Has a bad recovery mechanic affected you negatively?

To solve those problems and more, I recommend IRON! HEART! SURGE!

How would Iron Heart Surge help with a poor recovery mechanic?

Unless he multiclasses with Warblade, that's quite a few feats. And considering how the DM already nerfed the other two adept classes despite the fact they're playing Pathfinder (a system where practically every class except the Druid got boosts), I'm not sure cheesing Stormguard Warrior for massive damage is a good idea for a player to do, etiquette-wise.

EDIT: Bah! You editted your post as I was replying!

I'm actually open for some good optimization. We are going to be playing Age of Worms; this adventure has already claimed 4 of my characters lives and resulted in three party wipes.

Cheese away! If it's too much, I won't use it, but don't hold back.

Another alternative is to just make a Swordsage. Then the nerf doesn't really affect you anymore. A Swordsage can still be a good tank. In the sense of having a good AC, especially touch AC. They also get lots of counters from Setting Sun (and a very nice One With Shadow counter at high level Shadow Hand) to make them annoying to attack.

You just won't have the easy battlefield control options of the Crusader, but you'll be a much more mobile and versatile combatant.

I thought about that, but besides AC, I want the ability to stand toe to toe with these freaky undead #*&holes and endure their assaults, while at the same time keeping them off of the rest of the party. Swordsage doesn't have the base attack bonus I need or the hp, not to mention the pure staying power that the Devoted Spirit maneuvers provide.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Well, FWIW, I think it was Hong who a few years ago posted a great thread about "notes on a swordsage in play" about his experiences in Age of Worms playing a swordsage. Obviously the thread has tons of spoilers, but he seemed to do fine, and certainly survived a lot better than the beefy d12 HD barbarian in the group. One thing to take away from reading that thread that I don't think is much of a spoiler: The Mind Over Body counter saved his character's ass on numerous occasions. Now, a Crusader CAN pick it up with a feat at level 10+, but Concentration wouldn't be a class skill until then, so you'd have to catch up on it. Then again...it's PF, so class skill probably only means you get a +3 bonus it it, right? Also, PF means Concentration isn't a skill anymore... And being Warforged means you don't have to worry about as many fort saves as a normal person...

Crusader is the best for keeping things off the rest of the party if that's what you want. Warblade can certainly stand toe to toe with them as well, and Swordsage doesn't have to because he does fine skirmishing.

If you want Stormguard Warrior, it's probably best that you multiclass with Warblade for a level or 2 (2 gives Uncanny Dodge, so I'd consider that tempting). Doing a Warblade multiclass could also help "correct" your stance progression a little bit as a Crusader. And handily, Adaptive Style would let you refresh / swap out which maneuvers you ready for each class in one full round action. I'd need to see the Crusader stance progression to decide the best time to go Warblade. But aside from that, you should try to enter it so that you can pick up level 3 maneuvers when you do so. Then you can get Iron Heart Surge (not useful for fixing the houserule, that was a joke; is useful for any other in game condition practically) and a second helping of White Raven Tactics (ready it once with each class ). Your lone Warblade stance would be Punishing Stance, one I generally dislike, but you'll be using Devoted Spirit stances anyway. Punishing Stance is just to qualify for Stormguard Warrior.

 

[EroGaki]

Given how the recovery mechanic is for this game, it might behoove me to multiclass into another adept class for some extra maneuvers. Instead of crusader 9, I might take a level or two of swordsage or warblade for some versatility. What do you think?