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<blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 8622080" data-attributes="member: 93670">I think you are mistaken &amp; the implied bad GM'ing is not helpful. In the first example I chose a monster that should always be a dangerous big deal, it happens to also have a maneuver DC over what a strength build with a nat20 could achieve showing that a single dex save for such a powerful result is over the top.&nbsp; In the second example I used a lich with trolls inspired by the War Trolls employed by the DoSK in eberron, surely plate clad weapon wearing trolls&nbsp; being used by a Lich qualify as monsters with significant martial training?&nbsp; It was an example though so I simplified it to troll bodyguards &amp; a lich, is a lich not capable of plausibly employing guards with significant martial training?In the third example, how would you answer Cindy's question without assuming the Narrator is a bad narrator?&nbsp; If you can't answer it wiuthout assuming bad GM'ing does that not present a problem that elevates Take Weapon into a disjunction adjacent redzone?They were examples showing ways the ambiguities could cause problems, I simply chose monsters that fit the needs.&nbsp; Can you give examples with good monsters so we can talk about how the ambiguities create problems instead of attacking a hypothetical narrator?That bold bit is the problem with Take weapon, it does that to both PCs &amp; monsters.&nbsp; There's no save on later rounds like control &amp; debuff spells it's just a single dex save with a save or lose payload attached on the failed save.&nbsp;With Take Weapon &quot;very dangerous enemy wielding a strong melee weapon&quot; is unlikely to be anything but a dex based opponent sporting a raging pressed spiderbulb addiction&nbsp; &amp; excludes the vast majority of monsters that would fall under that &quot;some very dangerous enemy wielding a strong melee weapon&quot; label.&nbsp;&nbsp; Fire Giant is a&nbsp; CR11monster sporting multiattack with a&nbsp; +11 to hit with a 6d6+7 Greatsword.&nbsp; It also has&nbsp; a +4 dex save, a level 9 PC is likely to have a dc17 maneuver DC&nbsp; it will need to roll a 13 or better to not lose that 6d6+7 weapon attack.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="tetrasodium, post: 8622080, member: 93670"] I think you are mistaken & the implied bad GM'ing is not helpful. In the first example I chose a monster that should always be a dangerous big deal, it happens to also have a maneuver DC over what a strength build with a nat20 could achieve showing that a single dex save for such a powerful result is over the top. In the second example I used a lich with trolls inspired by the War Trolls employed by the DoSK in eberron, surely plate clad weapon wearing trolls being used by a Lich qualify as monsters with significant martial training? It was an example though so I simplified it to troll bodyguards & a lich, is a lich not capable of plausibly employing guards with significant martial training? In the third example, how would [I]you[/I] answer Cindy's question without assuming the Narrator is a bad narrator? If you can't answer it wiuthout assuming bad GM'ing does that not present a problem that elevates Take Weapon into a disjunction adjacent redzone? They were examples showing ways the ambiguities could cause problems, I simply chose monsters that fit the needs. Can you give examples with good monsters so we can talk about how the ambiguities create problems instead of attacking a hypothetical narrator? That bold bit is the problem with Take weapon, it does that to both PCs & monsters. There's no save on later rounds like control & debuff spells it's just a single dex save with a save or lose payload attached on the failed save. With Take Weapon "very dangerous enemy wielding a strong melee weapon" is unlikely to be anything but a dex based opponent sporting a raging pressed spiderbulb addiction & excludes the vast majority of monsters that would fall under that "some very dangerous enemy wielding a strong melee weapon" label. Fire Giant is a CR11monster sporting multiattack with a +11 to hit with a 6d6+7 Greatsword. It also has a +4 dex save, a level 9 PC is likely to have a dc17 maneuver DC it will need to roll a 13 or better to not lose that 6d6+7 weapon attack. [/QUOTE]

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