Help with Prc Class

[Wachman]

Ok, I’m trying to balance a prestige class I’m creating for a player in my game. This is for a sorcerer class character. The basic idea is the prestige class will trade higher level spells for more spells of lower levels. The class (as yet unnamed) would have the same hit dice, saves, and skill points as a sorcerer. Now, for my comparison, I used a lvl 20 Soc vs a lvl 10/10 soc/Prc.

The Prc Classs gains a +1 Caster level every 3 levels (1, 4, 7, 10). This effects spells per day, caster level, etc, But not spells known, a different table handles this. Now for the spells known, I had a hard time trying to come up with some neat formula. Finally here is what I came up with, its simple, at first glance seems overpowered, but stilled limited. At every level, the prestige class gains 1 new spell at every level he can cast. However, there are restrictions on what spells he may take. At 1st level he must choose one school, (abjur, conj, div, etc) he may only take spells from that school. At fourth level, he may choose a second school. Each new spell must be from only those two schools, and he must take at least one spell from each school. He picks another school at 7th, and a fourth at 10.

Now for some comparisons. A lvl 20 Soc has the following spells per day: 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6, and has the following spells known 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3. lvl10/10 only has only the following spells per day 6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3, but has the following spells known 19/15/14/13/12/11/7/1.

The prestige class has no 8th or 9th level spells, and knows only 1 7th level spell. He is also only a 14th level caster. His spells are easier to dispel and he has a harder time dispell others spells. His spells do not last as long, or do as much damage. For example a delayed blast fireball, would only do 14d8, vs. 20d8 damage.

He does however, know more lower level spells, considerably more at 5th level and below. My basic question is, does the loss of the nearly all 7th level spell, and all 8th and 9th level spells balance the high number of lower level spells the class gets? The class would have more spells at his disposal, but not the real biggies, and not be as effective a caster a straight Soc. Also. His spell selection is somewhat specialized and he may be forced to take spells he normally wouldn’t.

Your comments, opinions, and suggestions are sought.

 

[ATO_DM]

OVERPOWERED!

If the Prc casts spells in the same way as the sorceror he is way too overpowered. His multitude of spells known makes him better than the wizard AND the sorceror. The sorceror is designed to have spell power, and the wizard is supposed to be versatile. This Prc surpasses both classes in power and versatility. The fact that he is restricted to lower spells doesn't matter. With so many spells known and wise choices of abjuration, illusions, and evocations he'll be better off than any sorceror of equivalent level.

Here are spells that this guy could have all at the same time:

Major Globe of Invulnerability
Minor Globe of Invulnerability
Improved Invisibility
Fly
Protection from Missiles
Shield
Mage Armor
Mirror Image
- These are the only ones I can come up with off the top of my head but there are more.

And he'll be sure to have plenty of power left for the multitude of damage spells he'll hurl at you.

Maybe I'm overreacting but all the spells known just doesn't sit right with me.

 

[Rybaer]

I agree with ATO_DM. This does come across as too powerful. It completely negates the balancing factor of the sorcerer class - limited spell selection. While the downside is having fewer spells per day at the top end, I don't see that as being enough of a balance...particularly at high levels.

What I might suggest as an alternative would be something like this: The prestige class continues to advance in spell level just like the regular sorcerer. At each level, the sorcerer can choose to give up one newly attained spell known for two newly attained spells known - neither of which can be greater than half the highest level the sorcerer can already cast.

For example - a sorc 10/prestige 2 gains a level, becoming 10/3. He could choose to give up his new 6th level spell known for two 3rd level spells, or any combination of two spells under 3rd level.

Even handling it this way, I'd highly recommend playtesting its balance.

Another alternative would be to create a prestige class that grants the feat Extra Spell (from T&B) as a freebie every 2nd or 3rd level. If he really wants to hit the bonus spells known hard, go with a prestige class that gets this feat at every single level, but only gets +1 caster level at every other level (or maybe 2 out of 3 levels).


Hope that helps some.

 

[Ruavel]

there may be more to it...

While I think that the PrC as it stands is a little overpowered, there is a limiting factor that may not be being considered in the previous posts...

this character at level 20 (10/10) is going to be coming up against creatures which will laugh at the DCs of his multitude of low level spells... DC's of 15-18 are a joke to creatures/NPCs this level of character will face on a regular basis...

however, ATO_DM makes a very good point about versatility... your PrC may give a Sorcerer more spells than some wizards would even bother to learn... that does tip the balance out a little, IMHO...

maybe a reduction in the number of spell know or a decrease in the number of spells per day would bring things back in line...

just some thoughts...

 

[Kip the Bold]

There was a prestige class in a dragon magazine a while back (don't know the number off hand, I think it was the 'sorcery' issue) called Eldritch Master. It basically gives a sorcerer more spells known at each level while his spells per day do not increase. I think its pretty much what you are looking for.

 

[Al]

I don't think it's too powerful at all.

To be fair, the power of high-level sorcerors and wizards comes from the top-level spells. If this class was to go toe-to-toe with an opposing enemy single-class caster, it would clearly lose. If it won initiative, its offenses could be blocked with a cleverly-worded Chain Contingency (Antimagic Shell for one) and then it would be slaughtered with Mordenkainen's Disjunction removing its defenses followed by a standard Time Stop/Meteor Swarm barrage. If it loses initiative, it just gets slaughtered from the outset- and note that its reduced caster level means that it can't pull the Contingency trick (and can't even *cast* Chain Contingency).

Since most sorcerors would be wise to take Limited Wish as their 7th level spell, in all likelihood this class is realistic restricted to 6th level spells and below (whilst not all take LW, this is broadly agreed to be optimal due to the flexibility afforded).

So he has a broad spread of low-level spells- so what? In terms of sheer power, it can't compete with the single-class wizard or any prestige class which allows 9th level spells. The major boost, an increased repertoire, is a useful increment that offset this sacrifice, but (I would argue) doesn't even counterbalance it, let alone outweigh it.

Let us be truthful: in an issue of balance, the standard resolution is to put a single-class character against the proposed new prestige class and see if one clearly and consistently beats the other. In this example, the single-classed character consistently beats the proposed prestige class. By this reckoning, it is underpowered, and even when the added flexibility is factored in, it still does not tilt the balance back enough to make it too powerful.

 

[Wachman]

Thanks for the replies. The votes so far range from way overpowered, to slightly underpowered. The point seems to be what is the value of higher level spells verse having more lower level spells. What is the value of being able to cast 9th level spells? 8th?

ATO_DM:
True, the Prc may have all of those spells, and more. However, he can’t have:
Protection from spells
Incendiary Cloud
Discern Location
Sunburst
Horrid Wilting
Iron Body
Mordenkainen’s Disjunction
Gate
Meteor Swarm
Wish
Or any other 8th or 9th level spells. He also only has 1 7th level spell, while his straight counter part has 3.


Kip:
Thanks for the info, I don’t have Dragon, but I’ll see if I can get a hold of that issue and check out that class.

Al:
I agree, this Prc will not be as effective in a combat as a straight Soc. The player will have to choose his spells known carefully, and which spells to cast. His damage will be less, and his save DC’s will be lower. Also his spells will be easier to dispell.

The ultimate question remains, what is giving up your high level spell ability worth?