D&D 3E/3.5 Help with recreating a 2e PC in 3.5 (super modded 2e Priest)

[Enkhidu]

Hi all!

Normally a request like this would go into the rules forum, but I figure that this particular question will better fit into House Rules. You'll see why in a minute.

One of my most beloved PCs was played in a campaign over 10 years ago in the early(er) days of 2e, before all the Skills/Powers stuff. I played a Cleric (more accurately, mechanically a Priest of Hermes) in a fairly straightforward fashion. Now this campaign was one of those campaigns that made the pillars of heaven shake, so it should come as no surprise to you that the character I started with bore little resemblance to the one I ended up with (what with my patron being involved in a deific war that stripped him of his power but not before he set me on a path to reawaken one of the elder goddesses and "giving" me to her to start her faith anew - talk about character development!). This character ended up being more "powerful" than in a standard game of D&D, but only in versatility and defense. It had very little in the way of offensive capability (or at least it did the way I played it!).

Anyway, this character ended up in the service of an elder goddess of magic - think Mystra but more raw and focused on the divine rather than the arcane. So, to model this "freeform" magic, my DM and I sat down and created something very similar to the 3e sorcerer - spell slots cast spontaneously - that had a very wide, yet limited, spell list that included almost all spells (both divine AND arcane) that had "self" or "touch" as the range. If it was an arcane spell on the list, it was considered a divine spell two levels higher for that character.

With me so far? Cuz here's where it gets even more complex...

We also stated that the PC had the ability to call magic in a pure and solid form, and that it was usable to create short lived objects. This was based on the spell Spiritual Weapon in that it was magic made physical, and we created 14 new spells - one for each level - to create weapons and armor from the stuff (OK - so I had read a lot of Quasar and Green Lantern that year - sue me).

As the spell levels went up, the weapons created did more damage (d3, d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, 2d6) and increased in + as if it were a spiritual weapon (there was also a funky downgrading mechanic where you could get more + for a lower damage die - a 4th level spell could give a d3 +3 instead of a d8 - in retrospect, I don't really like that). Armor was similar, giving a better bonus as the level went up (beginning at leather, going up through plate). But Armor also had two funky abilites - rationed duration and spell attachment.

Rationed duration was like this - you cast the armor spell of your choice at the beginning of the day, and your duration was in in rounds - 1 per spell level per level of the caster - 6th level caster with a 4th level spell = 24 rounds). However, this spell did not actually come into effect until the armor was called (which could be done as if casting a spell). After the armor was called, duration continued as normal. The armor could be dismissed with a "free action" and called up again later to continue the duration, and the spell ended when the duration was used up.

Spell attachment was the doozy - by attaching spells to the armor when you cast the initial armoring spell, you could also ration the durations of other spells with the "self" range. This meant I could attach a protection from fire spell to the armor and benefit from it whenever the armor was up until either the armor duration ran out or the protection from fire duration ran out (whichever came first). There was no limit on the amount of spell you could attach.

So here's my problem! I'd like to find a way to retain the flavor of these spells by modeling them with class abilities, existing spells, prestige classes, or any combination thereof. I've looked at the Favored Soul from the mini's book and it looks like a good place to start, but I realy need some ideas.

Adv-thanks-ance!

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

It's quite a variet of abilities there...

Almost a case for a completely new class.

If you want to stick to published material, then I'd consider a sorceror for the arcane side, mystic core class (from the Dragonlance setting - a spontaneous divine caster) tied together by the Mystic Theurge prestige class from the DMG. You'd need to be pretty high level before it got useful, but I think it might do. Would give you spontaneous divine and arcane magic and you could pick spells you felt fitted. Although you would be 4 levels behind a focused arcane or divine caster, you'd be able to fling a gigantic number of spells per day.

Not sure about the armour ability - could be a/both domain ability for Mystra, although it'd be more powerful than existing ones. Possibly make it a spell of some sort? Possibly a combi, divine armour spell + arcane delaying spell.

The weapon could be factored as a spell of some sort?

 

[Enkhidu]

I'm beginning to believe that you're right about the completely new class thing. I'm thinking about floating a slightly modded Favored Soul by the DM - one with "domain" that simply allow the use of the armor and weapon spells I used to use (or a reasonable facsimile thereof).

If I were to go that route, what balance issues do you think it would raise?

 

[Enkhidu]

Over the weekend, I talked with my DM, and we pretty much figured out that we're going to create him as a cleric (slightly modified) and use Turning Attempts to do the calling of the Armor and Weaponry (i.e. use a Turning Attempt and call the armor or weapons) and use spells ans spell slots to actually create and power the weapons. For example, using a first level spell to power the creation of weaponry could create any simple one-handed or smaller melee weapon; a second level could create any martial one-handed or smaller melee weapon or any simple melee weapon; etc. Then additional spells could be used to "attach" magics (mostly defensive magics) to weapons and armor. Finally, we'll be using a divine version of Arcane Strike from the CW to give weapons that extra punch.

What do you think, and are there any holes we might have missed or ideas you have to share?

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

Over the weekend, I talked with my DM, and we pretty much figured out that we're going to create him as a cleric (slightly modified) and use Turning Attempts to do the calling of the Armor and Weaponry (i.e. use a Turning Attempt and call the armor or weapons) and use spells ans spell slots to actually create and power the weapons. For example, using a first level spell to power the creation of weaponry could create any simple one-handed or smaller melee weapon; a second level could create any martial one-handed or smaller melee weapon or any simple melee weapon; etc. Then additional spells could be used to "attach" magics (mostly defensive magics) to weapons and armor. Finally, we'll be using a divine version of Arcane Strike from the CW to give weapons that extra punch.

What do you think, and are there any holes we might have missed or ideas you have to share?

That sounds like it would work to me... seems a good mechanic for the type of thing you wanted. Basically a combination of turning+spells to use the ablity?

I think you're right that it can't be made quite right from any core rules I've run across.

IMO, it's the sort of rule that's far enough from the core stuff that it really needs to be playtested to see how it goes... possibly tweaked depending on how it pans out.

Sounds like this is being put together for flavor value, for which I think is cool.


As a DM, I think it could be slightly 'risky' in that clerics are already very powerful in combat (due to certain buffing spells) and if 'munchkined' this could push them past a fighter... which may be a bad thing.

FWIW, there are 5 players in my group - 3 of them would be allowed to play this if they asked. 2 would be politely disuaded as they tend to number crunch a little bit too effectively, if you see where I'm coming from?

 

[Enkhidu]

That sounds like it would work to me... seems a good mechanic for the type of thing you wanted. Basically a combination of turning+spells to use the ablity?

I think you're right that it can't be made quite right from any core rules I've run across.

IMO, it's the sort of rule that's far enough from the core stuff that it really needs to be playtested to see how it goes... possibly tweaked depending on how it pans out.

Sounds like this is being put together for flavor value, for which I think is cool.


As a DM, I think it could be slightly 'risky' in that clerics are already very powerful in combat (due to certain buffing spells) and if 'munchkined' this could push them past a fighter... which may be a bad thing.

FWIW, there are 5 players in my group - 3 of them would be allowed to play this if they asked. 2 would be politely disuaded as they tend to number crunch a little bit too effectively, if you see where I'm coming from?

Some things that may assuage your reluctance to use something like this in your own games:

*My DM and I will be sitting down and creating a whole new spell list for this "cleric." The number of spells available to the class will drop dramatically, and will be based around protection for the most part.

*Being able to "call" the armor and weaponry take the place of domain powers - no extra domain spell per level, and no gimmies for the domain itself.

*We still haven't ruled out using something like the Mystic or the Favored Soul for the basis for the class to keep the spontaneous casting. If we do, spell selection (which is the real problem with clerics, IMNSHO) drops even more dramtically than if we created a modified spell list.

*Finally, if the 3.5 version of this parallels in any way the 2e version, about half of the spells available in a given day will end up being tied to the armor and the weapons. I know that I ended up giving up the idea of really doing damage almost completely and instead focused on protection (good AC and energy absorption out the wazoo), and it still took almost half my slots.

Basically, with this combo you have three possible roles: attacker, defender, or healer. There aren't enough spell slots to do all three.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

I really like the concept - think it'd be cool. I was thinking of practicing some sincere flattery on it and using something similar in my camapign

All I meant to say is that it's far enough from the core rules that it may need rebalancing after playing for a bit?



I realise my last post didn't come out saying quite what I meant. The usual problem of the internet!

I had a bad experience in early 3.0 with a player using a homemade Blade Dancer (before sword and fist came out), I'd missed something while reading his version... The short version was that it unbalanced play, was spoiling a couple of other players fun, and he was very opposed to changing it as I hadn't made that clear up front, etc, etc... Ended in a nasty argument, so now I lay the ground rules out about homemade stuff before I allow it...

That being, it sounds like you have a more of a sensible relationship with your DM, than I did with this guy



Depending on the magic level of the campaign... As far as healer goes - I think having Cure light wounds on your spell list is enough to get that going... at least outside of combat. 650Gp for 50D8+50 of healing is pretty cheap?

 

[Enkhidu]

Yeah, we've gone through something like that with homebrew stuff that the originator was reluctant to change once the campaign got going - it's never fun. But, when you've played together for 15 years there comes a time when you realize that group effort on creation heads off more problems than any other method.

Anyhoo - aside from the possibilities of magic items taking up the slack in the healing dept (as we have a slightly different view of magic than the average group) - are there any suggestion/comments that you're dying to make? Not just AL, but for the peanut gallery too?

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

So, as far as I got:

You cast a spell to summon weapon or armour at the begining of the day.

During the day you can use turn attempts to call the item to you.

Then you can cast enhancements/buffs onto the item and their duration will not deplete until the item is called to you?


1 Rackload of questions:

The Weapon/Armour spells:
I was thinking about the durations and calling times. How long do you get from the basic spells?
Can you use metamagic feats on them? Are they detectable/dispellable while 'waiting'?

The turning attempts:
Does/should a single turning attempt allow you to call both weapon and armour at the same time?
Turning is normally a standard action. There were feats in DoTF to quicken turning. Could you use them or some sort of class ability to get them as either move equivalent or free actions?

Buffing spells:
What happens if the duration of a buff spell exceeds the duration of the armour? Could you re-cast the armour and transfer the spell over?

What buff spells can be stored?

What happens with spells that effect multiple parts of you?
For example, Righteous Might (or it's bigger brother Divine Power) gives you +X strength and enlarges you and Weapons+Armour. Could you store that? Would it go in a weapon/armour/both?

 

[Enkhidu]

So, as far as I got:

You cast a spell to summon weapon or armour at the begining of the day.

During the day you can use turn attempts to call the item to you.

Then you can cast enhancements/buffs onto the item and their duration will not deplete until the item is called to you?


1 Rackload of questions:

The Weapon/Armour spells:
I was thinking about the durations and calling times. How long do you get from the basic spells?
Can you use metamagic feats on them? Are they detectable/dispellable while 'waiting'?

The turning attempts:
Does/should a single turning attempt allow you to call both weapon and armour at the same time?
Turning is normally a standard action. There were feats in DoTF to quicken turning. Could you use them or some sort of class ability to get them as either move equivalent or free actions?

Buffing spells:
What happens if the duration of a buff spell exceeds the duration of the armour? Could you re-cast the armour and transfer the spell over?

What buff spells can be stored?

What happens with spells that effect multiple parts of you?
For example, Righteous Might (or it's bigger brother Divine Power) gives you +X strength and enlarges you and Weapons+Armour. Could you store that? Would it go in a weapon/armour/both?

Truthfully, alot of these questions are ones that my DM and I haven't addressed yet, but they do give me a pretty good place to start looking for trouble!

Here's a more completel breakdown of what I've so far proposed to the DM, and some of the things we've already agreed upon:

"Creation" of a particular weapon or armor rig is done via spells. Specifics on creation are not yet approved by the DM, but look to be something like this:

By default, created Pure Magic Weapons are always sized for the creator, and are either light or one-handed. By using one 1st level spell slot to fuel the creation of a weapon, the creator may create any appropriately sized light or single-handed Simple weapon. Using a 2nd level slot allows Martial weapons of the same size, and a 3rd level slot allow exotic weapons.

Further, created weapons may be modified as follows:

*To create a two-handed weapon - +1 spell slot
*To create a masterwork version of the weapons - +1 spell slot
*To treat the weapon as if the creator has proficiency in it - +1 spell slot
*To treat the weapon as if the creator had Focus with that weapon - +1 additional spell slot (must have proficiency already, whether through class ability, feat or this creation)
*To treat the weapon as if the creator has Specialization with that weapon - +1 additional slot (must have Focus already, whether by standard feat or through creation)
*To treat the weapon as if the creator had Greater Specialization - +1 additional spell slot.

So, to create a Pure Magic Masterwork Dwarven Waraxe that the creator is considered Greater Specialized in, it takes an 8th level spell.

Note that more spells could be attached to this weapon - for example, Magic Weapon could affect it as if it were a normal weapon. In this case, that spell would be "attached" to that weapon, and only be in affect while the weapon was called.

Armor creation is similar to weapon creation (though I haven't figured out what would be the best breakdown - I'm partial to a straight AC bonus per spell level, but have no idea what would be the fairest way of doing it!).

Once a weapon/rig is "created" it sits in an extradimensional space for 24 hours, after which it needs to be created anew. During this 24 hours, the item/rig can be called using Turning Attempts - each turning attempt calls the weapon or armor for a # of rounds equal to the creator's class level. Any sort of anti-magic barrier prevents the calling of said items, and items entering into a anti-magic zone are suppressed.

I'm unsure about dispelling while they are in the extradimensional space, but am leaning toward "no" unless its a targeted dispel vs that particular effect. Metamagic feats won't directly affect the items, but could affect the spells attached to them.

As for Turning attempts, a single attempt could be used to call either weapon or armor. Both require two separate attempts. And I see no reason why the quickened turning would be a problem. However, my DM and I are thinking of being able to call two or even three as a full round action... (though this would be a function of level...).

Buff spells - this is where it gets funky: It used to be that spells durations were attached directly to the armor, and we kept track of rounds the armor was up - only rounds the armor was actually up counted toward duration. We probably need to take a lookat this one again, primarliy for spells like Righteous Might..

Righteous Might is one of those spells we might make impossible to attach - as much as the powergamer in me goes Whee! at the idea, and the spectator in me goes Whee! at what the visuals would look like, the fair gamer in me cringe at Righteoud Might period. We'll have to look long and hard at it.