Helpless

[Aegeri]

Coup de grace has come up so rarely in my games that I find it isn't even an issue.

Exactly, which is why I had no problem just removing it from existing completely to begin with. In all the games I've run, the only person with the option for doing it reliably happens to be me (as PCs go unconscious much more than monsters do). It also curiously balances out certain monsters - like Jackalweres who are just not as stupidly overpowered with CdG removed.

Additionally it heavily pings back powers like sleep and other unconscious effects. Which are usually either completely useless or absolutely broken. Sleep is still a very good power for a multitude of reasons even with this - given that being able to impose no actions + -5 penalty to all defenses (not to mention falling prone and granting CA) is just brilliant by itself for any power.

It basically does nothing significant and just removes some abusive uses of unconscious. Unconscious (and therefore helpless) is still the worst possible status effect to get. It also means that I don't have to wonder how someone "helpless" can continue fighting while being brutally attacked by anyone (in the rare powers that just inflict that condition alone).

 

[Jhaelen]

The Wizard's ninth level spell Face of Death does exactly that - it leaves the target active but helpless. It's... weird.

Well, yes. I wonder if that power would have slipped through the new, more rigorous quality control for magazine articles?

 

[Nichwee]

Well, yes. I wonder if that power would have slipped through the new, more rigorous quality control for magazine articles?

Probably, seeing as it is not a Dragon Mag power - it was Arcane Power.

 

[Nullzone]

It's magic. It can do wierd things. Probably the issue with it is simply the word "helpless". If "helpless" instead said something like "deathly" or "executable" or somesuch, it wouldn't be an issue.

Yes it would, because I would still question why a magic spell leaves someone open to the rough equivalent of curbstomping without physically disabling them.

"It's magic" doesn't fly; good magic actually has some level of reasoning and rules that govern how its effects manifest.

 

[Nichwee]

Yes it would, because I would still question why a magic spell leaves someone open to the rough equivalent of curbstomping without physically disabling them.

"It's magic" doesn't fly; good magic actually has some level of reasoning and rules that govern how its effects manifest.

The magic effects the targets' internal organs/structure such that it becomes fragile in some manner. Thus any normal hit will prove devestating and may even be a big enough shock to the system to be instantly lethal (You can be CdG'd). A side-effect of this fragility is that the person is a little sluggish compared to normal (You grant CA). However most of your mental and physical capabilities are unchanged (You are not stunned, dazed, blind etc).

There you go. Magic made you "Helpless" (CdG-able + CA granting) but didn't physically hinder you.

 

[ravenheart]

I've voiced my opinion on the Helpless condition quite a lot over the past few weeks on these boards, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that I'm replying to this thread. And, as is my habit, I thought of a new twist on the matter in reading the posts here.

IDEA: Remove helpless as a condition - instead, whenever you would get combat adantage against a creature from more than one source (such as flanking a prone target, or a surprise attack from hiding), you can execute a coup de grace. Also allow a ranged coup de grace, but at a -2 penalty or so.

Ex. Face of Death would read "grants combat advantage and can be the subject of a coup de grace".

Thoughts? Doesn't change things much as a whole, but adds opportunity for characters to do it.

 

[Nichwee]

I've voiced my opinion on the Helpless condition quite a lot over the past few weeks on these boards, so it shouldn't come as a surprise that I'm replying to this thread. And, as is my habit, I thought of a new twist on the matter in reading the posts here.

IDEA: Remove helpless as a condition - instead, whenever you would get combat adantage against a creature from more than one source (such as flanking a prone target, or a surprise attack from hiding), you can execute a coup de grace. Also allow a ranged coup de grace, but at a -2 penalty or so.

Ex. Face of Death would read "grants combat advantage and can be the subject of a coup de grace".

Thoughts? Doesn't change things much as a whole, but adds opportunity for characters to do it.

Would be too easy to CdG if "Double CA" did it. Especially for Thief/Rogue builds that give themselves CA almost every turn.
Flank plus half the conditions in the game would become "Max Striker Damage + Crit Bonuses".
All crit fishers would turn into "CA fishers", etc.

Basically every fight would be about granting CdG to people and nothing else as this would be the default way to kill anything.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

I could picture this spell working like so:

The target's senses are dulled, and time seems to slow down and speed up, all at once. Combat is a swirl around them. They can still fight, but they do so as if in a trance, ignoring all threats to their person, as though the world around them seems less 'real' somehow.

Then, out of the haze, a sharp pain. Where did it come from? And another. Ugh, pain. Ah, an enemy. *swing*

More pain now. All is going black... What happened?

I can see it in my mind. It's very cinematic.

 

[Jhaelen]

Probably, seeing as it is not a Dragon Mag power - it was Arcane Power.

Arcane Power includes a bunch of powers that were initially published in Dragon articles.

What was funniest about it was that they had been corrected in the Dragon compilation but in Arcane Power they printed the uncorrected versions from the original article, so they had to be included in the official errata.

I may be misremembering but I think Face of Death is one of those powers. Does it have the Illusion keyword? If it does, I'm most probably right.

 

[Nichwee]

Yes it does have the Illusion keyword.

Guess I learn something new every day