Hercules in Deities and Demigods

[Upper_Krust]

Hi demajen!

Wow, i can't believe I've actually just spent half an hour reading this lot. Ouch my eyes hurt.

Good specualtions guys.

Were getting there slowly but surely!

I've always loved reading about the gods in D&D (i got Legends and Lore and all 3 deities books for the Realms for 2nd. Ed) so I'm jolly well looking forward to Deities and Demigods.

Legends & Lore (1st Ed.) is my favourite book of all time!

At one point I think I had it memorised almost verbatim, I remember S'mon testing me at random on stuff in the book one time

"Freys Symbol?"..."that would be an Ice Blue Two-Handed Sword"

Also, the Epic-Level Handbook will finally allow me to convert some of my characters from 2nd. Ed (we had to put the campaign off, since there was no way to officially convert characters of over 20th level and still make them special).

I am looking forward to Call of Cthulhu; Deities & Demigods; Faiths & Pantheons; Epic Level Handbook; Monster Manual 2...and a certain other book!

Keep up the good work guys.

Find a job you like and you'll never need to work a day in your life!

 

[Olive]

Personally I loved Legends and lore (1e). But then i read it again, a month or so ago...and you know what? it sucks! It hardly tells you anything about what the gods actually represent or anything else...it's basically just stats and combat tactics.

which is fine, and has it's place, but the FR demihuman deities book from 2e (and maybe the human deities book as well) was much better in terms of making usable deities in your average campaign. so while i am pro stats for deities and avatars, i want descriptions of the beliefs and dogmas and everything else too! if it ends up like legend and lore ie a monster manual full of gods, then i won't buy it...

of course it probably won't...

 

[Glyfair]

Though would you say Supreme Initiative is equal to Improved Initiative!?

I don't think it is. Based on Hermes example, I think it is what allows him to always go first. I expect there to be strong prerequisites on this. You wouldn't want to have a battle where several deities have this in the same battle (in perhaps a War of the Gods type campaign/scenario).

Glyfair of Glamis

 

[Glyfair]

But what makes you think Saves or Attack Bonus are affected mate?

Going over things the Attack Bonus certainly seems like it fits though! (and nicely cancels the AC bonus)

Incidently is Hercules club '+5'?

Actually I went over Hermes' avatar's stats and compared them to his normal stats. These all dropped by exactly eight. Some of them could be coincidence, but I doubt it.

Yeah, it's a +5 greatclub. He also has a +5 mighty distance composite longbow (+4 Str Bonus).

I wonder what his Salient Divine Ability "Indomitable Strength" does. Anyone want to break this down? His +5 greatclub does 1d10+51/19-20. He has a 55 Str, Weapon Specialization (greatclub), Divine Weapon Specialization (greatclub) and Improved Critical (greatclub). Might it be that it doubles your Str modifier? It certainly might be something that doesn't do anything to damage. The only thing I get from this is that I don't want to be hit by his greatclub (especially with his attack combination of +67/+62/+57/+52).

Another thing for the math geniuses. When he is Divine Raging his attack switches to +72/+67/+62/+57 melee (1d10+56/19-20), with a Str of 65. When he can rage 5 times/day for 1 hour at a time, I really wouldn't want to be around for this.



Glyfair of Glamis

 

[Gez]

My take on Supreme Initiative:

A character with SI always goes first, without rolling initiative. When several characters with SI are involved in the same scene, all characters with it act before all character without, but normal initiative rolls are required to determine the order among the "suprem initiators" and among the "normal initiators".

 

[S'mon]

Personally I loved Legends and lore (1e). But then i read it again, a month or so ago...and you know what? it sucks! It hardly tells you anything about what the gods actually represent or anything else...it's basically just stats and combat tactics.

which is fine, and has it's place, but the FR demihuman deities book from 2e (and maybe the human deities book as well) was much better in terms of making usable deities in your average campaign. so while i am pro stats for deities and avatars, i want descriptions of the beliefs and dogmas and everything else too! if it ends up like legend and lore ie a monster manual full of gods, then i won't buy it...

of course it probably won't...

1e L&L is a bit strange in that its stated purpose is to facilitate use of gods in a campaign as myths & beings to worship, yet its actual presentation facilitates more direct interaction with gods - which IMO (and U_K's opinion) is a good thing - if you're playing in a high-level Greek or Norse setting gods _should_ be treated a lot like regular NPCs IMO. Just because it doesn't fit with Judaeo-Christian ideas of deity doesn't mean its wrong for a game setting based on myths where heroes _do_ fight and defeat gods (eg Diomedes defeat of Ares in the Iliad).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Olive!

The FR demihuman deities book from 2e (and maybe the human deities book as well) was much better in terms of making usable deities in your average campaign. so while i am pro stats for deities and avatars, i want descriptions of the beliefs and dogmas and everything else too! if it ends up like legend and lore ie a monster manual full of gods, then i won't buy it...

of course it probably won't...

I think all the deities have a full column (?) devoted to belief/dogma/worshippers etc. (from a total of 3 columns; which includes illustration)

Is that a fair assessment Glyfair mate!?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Glyfair mate!

I don't think it is.

Exactly my point.

Based on Hermes example, I think it is what allows him to always go first.

Absolutely.

I expect there to be strong prerequisites on this.

Possibly? Perhaps the only prerequisite is Divine Rank(s)?

You wouldn't want to have a battle where several deities have this in the same battle (in perhaps a War of the Gods type campaign/scenario).

I think it would be easily determined...

Hey Gez mate!

My take on Supreme Initiative:

A character with SI always goes first, without rolling initiative. When several characters with SI are involved in the same scene, all characters with it act before all character without, but normal initiative rolls are required to determine the order among the "suprem initiators" and among the "normal initiators".

...that would be how I perceive it as well.

 

[Glyfair]

I don't think several combatants having Supreme Initiative would be hard to adjudicate. You could have them all roll initiative among themselves, or just have them all go at the same time (which would be my choice). It still feels like an ability that should be somewhat unique.

The only gods I can think of that would have it would be Hermes and Mercury (if you treat the similiar pantheons as seperate). Among mythological beings I would only give it to "Thought" from Norse mythology. There may be several others (my knowledge of mythology is far from exhaustive), but I think it would be very rare.

The only place I would consider it common would be the comic books. DC Comics would probably have a host of characters with it.

Glyfair of Glamis

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again mate!

Actually I went over Hermes' avatar's stats and compared them to his normal stats. These all dropped by exactly eight. Some of them could be coincidence, but I doubt it.

Yeah, it's a +5 greatclub. He also has a +5 mighty distance composite longbow (+4 Str Bonus).

His +5 greatclub does 1d10+51/19-20. He has a 55 Str, Weapon Specialization (greatclub), Divine Weapon Specialization (greatclub) and Improved Critical (greatclub). Might it be that it doubles your Str modifier? It certainly might be something that doesn't do anything to damage.

Okay...

BAB:

Barbarian = +20
Fighter = +10 (Epic)
Strength = +22
Divine = +5
Club = +5

...Divine Weapon Focus = +5 (this may mean that Divine Weapon Focus 'replaces' Weapon Focus, or confirm Glyfairs theory that it is a set number eg. +4?)

Total: +67

Damage:

Strength = +22 (+33 used two-handed)
Club = +5
Divine = +5 (?)

...Divine Weapon Specialisation = +8 (?) (again this may confirm Glyfairs theory, Divine Weapon Spec. could deliver a set +8: double Divine Weapon Focus' +4)

Or perhaps actually Divine Weapon Focus is +3 and stacks with Weapon Focus and Divine Weapon Specialisation is +6 and stacks with Weapon Specialisation!?

I wonder what his Salient Divine Ability "Indomitable Strength" does. Anyone want to break this down?

My guess is that it adds something like +20 to Strength and is only available to Gods of Strength.

Hermes has a similar ability that adds +20 (or so) to Dexterity. (Not sure if this is Divine Celerity? That might be more to do with his movement speed?)

The only thing I get from this is that I don't want to be hit by his greatclub (especially with his attack combination of +67/+62/+57/+52).

Another thing for the math geniuses. When he is Divine Raging his attack switches to +72/+67/+62/+57 melee (1d10+56/19-20), with a Str of 65. When he can rage 5 times/day for 1 hour at a time, I really wouldn't want to be around for this.

With a +10 increase to Strength when raging (+5 bonus); then using a weapon two-handed Hercules should deal 1d10+58...shouldn't he!?

Either way Hercules is just a little pussycat!