Here’s what I want to see…

sjmiller

Explorer
Here’s what I want to see…

I guess you could call this an open letter/list of questions for Wizards of the Coast. I don’t really expect that any sort of response will come of this, but I wanted to say what I have to say. That being the case, let’s begin.

So far, what I have seen of the newest edition of D&D has not had the “Wow Factor” that 3.0 had when it came out. I am just not excited about it. Now, it’s true that almost no concrete facts have been presented so far. This could be the reason why I am just not “feeling the love” for the new edition. As I seem to recall, at this time during the 3.0 release we at least had some definite information to dispel the rumors. With all the talk and rumors about the latest edition flying about, what I have been hearing concerns me. Maybe Wizards of the Coast could help to dispel a lot of rumors by answering a few simple questions.

Will I be able to play a full and complete version of D&D with just the core books? All I have heard is how great and wonderful playing D&D will be when you use all the “fun and exciting” online aspects of the game. What if I don’t want to use them? What if I want to sit at a table with my friends and roll dice and play? It seems that character creation, dice rolling, mapping, and even miniatures are being talked about in an electronic sense. What about all of this in a tactile sense? Will I be playing a “lesser game” if I chose to ignore the online content?

What races and classes will be in the Player’s Handbook? When 3.0 came out we knew fairly early on what races and classes were appearing in the PH. All we’re being told about 4.0 is that some classes are staying and some are going. Some races are staying and some are going. Which ones, we don’t know. I am beginning to wonder if the folks at Wizards of the Coast know which ones are going where.

Why all the denigration of the current edition? Instead of giving us concrete examples of what is new and exciting about 4.0, all we’re getting lately seems to be belittlement of various parts of 3.5. Just about a month ago all we heard was how cool and wonderful D&D 3.5 was. Now, all we seem to hear is how those things that were great then are nothing but painful junk now. Why weren’t they junk back then? If they were junk back then, why produce the stuff in the first place? Maybe it’s just a case of “the new stuff is wonderful so the old stuff has to be crap.” I don’t agree with this tactic, and I think it turns off a number of people.

How is the public playtesting going to work? I have done quite a bit of playtesting for other game companies. One of the keys to a good playtest is quickly getting the material to the playtesters. This is extremely important, especially when you are talking about testing an entirely new game system. Playtesters need time to read the material and use it in a game setting. They need the chance to do this not once or twice, but a number of times. Then they need to report back with comments both positive and negative. The chance to spot errors and rules that just don’t work takes time. I am afraid that the time remaining before 4.0 is supposed to come out is not enough to do a complete playtest. I get the feeling that the public playtest is being done to make people feel they have an effect on the game, even though they really won’t. I would like to be proven wrong. I would like to see the playtest do what they are meant to do, but I am really not sure if it is possible.

What parts of D&D are we losing? I know we are constantly hearing that we’re going to be getting all sorts of cool new things to use for D&D. What things going to be cast by the wayside? I understand that the magic system, as we currently know it, will be cast aside for a hybrid system. As stated earlier, we know that some player classes and races will be cast aside for “cooler” things. What else will we be losing? Will we still roll dice during character creation, or will it be a determinist point distribution system? We know that grappling and multiple attacks per turn are going, but what else? It’s cool that we’re getting all sorts of new things to play with, but what about the stuff we have now?

I guess what I am really trying to say is that we’re pretty close to a major change in D&D and we seem to know less now than we did at the same point the last time this happened. I am concerned that this new edition will not be able to live up to the hype it is given, which can only lead to disappointment and a lack of fan support.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

I'll just toss in what I have picked up from reading various sources here and at the WotC forums.

sjmiller said:
Will I be able to play a full and complete version of D&D with just the core books?
This one has been responded to many times by WotC developers. The answer is a clear "Yes." You might not have every option available if you don't subscribe to D&D Insider, but that is not any different than not having every option available unless you buy every book they publish.

What races and classes will be in the Player’s Handbook? When 3.0 came out we knew fairly early on what races and classes were appearing in the PH. All we’re being told about 4.0 is that some classes are staying and some are going. Some races are staying and some are going. Which ones, we don’t know. I am beginning to wonder if the folks at Wizards of the Coast know which ones are going where.
From what I've read they aren't saying yet, quite possibly because some decisions are not yet final about what will and will not be included.
 

I first looked at 4e with a mixture of hope and skepticism. Hope that they would fix the problems with third, and pessimism that they would leave the more problematic aspects of third alone and mess with something that works perfectly well.

The more I read on the WotC blogs and in the Design and Development columns, the more I realize that the designers are really trying to do the best they can to make the game the best D&D experience possible. And no, I am no WotC employee or a rabid fanboy. I haven't played D&D for two years in part because although I loved many of the changes in 3e, the ones I didn't like turned the game into something I did not really enjoy playing. I'm talking about CR's and wealth-by-level. It's easier to go over to someone else's OGL or d20 game than to try to come up with house rules to adapt that mess to the game I'd like to run.

When I read that the Christmas tree effect would be something the designers of 4e were trying to eliminate, I nearly jumped for joy. It seems now that they are finally designing D&D with good fantasy in mind.

There are some changes I am skeptical about, but to me 4e has the wow factor that will bring me back into D&D.

Howndawg
 

Originally Posted by sjmiller
Will I be able to play a full and complete version of D&D with just the core books?

The answer to this really depends on how you define "full and complete version." Technically, you can play a "full and complete version" of D&D 3.5 with just the SRD, but most people I know would say that you aren't really getting the whole experience.

It seems to me the full and complete 4E experience is going to be tied into the DI pretty heavily, no matter what WotC is saying right now (remember, they said repeatedly there would be no 4E announcement at GenCon and 4E was a LONG way off...8 months is not a long time, particularly in the publishing world, and I speak from experience).

Now, having said that, you might be able to have a 4E experience very similar in "completeness" to how you experience 3.5 without using the DI, and if you're OK with that, peachy.

JediSoth
 

JediSoth said:
The answer to this really depends on how you define "full and complete version." Technically, you can play a "full and complete version" of D&D 3.5 with just the SRD, but most people I know would say that you aren't really getting the whole experience.

It seems to me the full and complete 4E experience is going to be tied into the DI pretty heavily,
no matter what WotC is saying right now (remember, they said repeatedly there would be no 4E announcement at GenCon and 4E was a LONG way off...8 months is not a long time, particularly in the publishing world, and I speak from experience).

Now, having said that, you might be able to have a 4E experience very similar in "completeness" to how you experience 3.5 without using the DI, and if you're OK with that, peachy.

JediSoth

Bolded by me.

JediSoth, that's a great way of summarizing the concerns that a number of customers are having with the relationship between 4E and the DDI.

Thanks.
 

sjmiller said:
Why all the denigration of the current edition? Instead of giving us concrete examples of what is new and exciting about 4.0, all we’re getting lately seems to be belittlement of various parts of 3.5. Just about a month ago all we heard was how cool and wonderful D&D 3.5 was. Now, all we seem to hear is how those things that were great then are nothing but painful junk now. Why weren’t they junk back then? If they were junk back then, why produce the stuff in the first place? Maybe it’s just a case of “the new stuff is wonderful so the old stuff has to be crap.” I don’t agree with this tactic, and I think it turns off a number of people.

I don't think I've heard anybody from WotC describe 3.5E as junk. They may be spending a lot of time pointing out the flaws in 3.5E, but that's not the same thing as denigrating the entire thing. The current edition is a good system overall, but there is nonetheless vast room for improvement.

As for the dearth of concrete examples, that's probably because the system is still being developed and most of it's still subject to change. Also, there's no sense giving everything away, or else they'd be no point in trying to sell the books. ;)

So for now, it probably makes the most sense to talk more about the flaws of 3.5E to reassure players like me that they do recognize them and will be improving upon them in some fashion for 4E, even if they're not yet at liberty to discuss exactly how.
 

Thank you for voicing skepticism similar to mine - couldn't have said it better myself!

sjmiller said:
Why all the denigration of the current edition? Instead of giving us concrete examples of what is new and exciting about 4.0, all we’re getting lately seems to be belittlement of various parts of 3.5. Just about a month ago all we heard was how cool and wonderful D&D 3.5 was. Now, all we seem to hear is how those things that were great then are nothing but painful junk now. Why weren’t they junk back then? If they were junk back then, why produce the stuff in the first place? Maybe it’s just a case of “the new stuff is wonderful so the old stuff has to be crap.” I don’t agree with this tactic, and I think it turns off a number of people.
What I found really interesting was that not only has WotC back-stabbed it's own product, but I'm stunned to see threads and posts by people gleefully joining in the fray. While I have no quarrel with critique on technical details substantiated buy sound reasoning or solid, factual, hyperbole-free examples, I am really not impressed by opinionated trashing of 3rd edition to justify 4E. I think most people are sensible, but I've started avoiding even lurking in this forum because of the few who love to denigrate things as though they themselves know better than anyone else. (Yeah, I'm really irrated by some anti-3E attitudes.) Bashing 3E will not encourage/persuade me to invest in 4E. I'm definitely turned off by the the bashing in various quarters. 4E will only sell if it is actually a better system - so far we only have bits 'n' pieces. For me the bits 'n' pieces worry me more than excite me.

I have a SW Saga rules set. As designed it seems to work well with the high-paced, action-oriented, roleplaying-lite flavour of Star Wars. But it wouldn't fit right, IMHO, if used for say, Star Trek which has a totally different "feel". I really hope that D&D does not become a fantasy version of SW! SW rules are flavour and "feel" unto themselves and I really don't want D&D to go that way. :(

sjmiller said:
What parts of D&D are we losing? I know we are constantly hearing that we’re going to be getting all sorts of cool new things to use for D&D. What things going to be cast by the wayside? I understand that the magic system, as we currently know it, will be cast aside for a hybrid system. As stated earlier, we know that some player classes and races will be cast aside for “cooler” things. What else will we be losing? Will we still roll dice during character creation, or will it be a determinist point distribution system? We know that grappling and multiple attacks per turn are going, but what else? It’s cool that we’re getting all sorts of new things to play with, but what about the stuff we have now?

I guess what I am really trying to say is that we’re pretty close to a major change in D&D and we seem to know less now than we did at the same point the last time this happened. I am concerned that this new edition will not be able to live up to the hype it is given, which can only lead to disappointment and a lack of fan support.
If the main thing changed was the magic system, that would reverberate throughout the entire rules set - and I'd accept that because that is a well-needed revolution IMHO. Vancian magic system, even though it has "worked" for many years, should be replaced in favour of something more logical that is commonly used in many, many fantasy novels as well as in other FRPG systems: magic usage exacting a cost of some kind - fatigue, soul corruption, power stones, or other ideas. The more devastating or reality changing the power, the higher the cost and/or risk of failure. This would make more sense than prep 'n' cast 'n' forget. I'd really like to see something like that implemented in 4E - a clear and thorough change.

The stuff I'm seeing so far does not excite me. Raising the degree of magic or magic-like abilities in the game is particularly disturbing because I always felt D&D was supposed to be fantasy medieval world - a medieval reality infused with mysterious magic and the supernatural - as opposed to high fantasy free of any direct connection to our own medieval and mythical history. The latter is the stuff of WoW and Everquest and Zelda - if D&D is going in that direction, and there are hints that it will - I won't be buying. If I want World of Warcraft, Everquest, Zelda or whatever of that kind (I'm not saying they're bad for others to enjoy) I'll go to those sources themselves. Keep my D&D connected, at least at its base, to medieval history and its myths, legends and great stories please. More like LotR and less like Everquest. Now that I think of it, Eberon is an example of the style of high fantasy I don't like - but at least it is a campaign setting I can ignore and not a whole rules system I may have to forego. It is easier to add magic to a game system than to take it out - let us DMs have a say in the level of magic we are willing to allow in the games we run!

So I'm not thrilled by the preliminary sales pitches so far either. :\ I think that WotC should be able to make some detailed confirmations about some things real soon - if I were them I would have already. It could be skillfully done without undermining the final product pitches for 3.5.
 
Last edited:


Winterthorn said:
What I found really interesting was that not only has WotC back-stabbed it's own product, but I'm stunned to see threads and posts by people gleefully joining in the fray.

I wanted to address Stephen's and your posts on this point, but I figured you had the better lead-in. :) TO be fair, I haven't seen any WotC personnel "back-stabbing" the 3.x stuff; to be more accurate, they've said (paraphrasing Dave Noonan on the Podcast) that "while we recognize how great 3rd edition was, we also through lots of play identify some parts where it doesn't live up to the promise," followed by his examples of same. In fact, Dave particularly has been building up to this point in the web articles over the past year or so, but without saying 3E by name. Anyone remember his "proud nails" column? Looking back in hindsight on that column it's easy to see the stuff he's been identifying as problems in gameplay, and thus what he and others have probably been working on over the last two years.

What has happened however, is that people on message boards are jumping on the bandwagon with REAL product backstabs, and it's easy to mentally mix the former with the latter. I might be wrong, but I really haven't seen anyone from WotC come out and say, "3.5 really was a bad product." I DID see them come out and say, "2E was not a good product," because Dave Noonan said in the podcast that there was a time in his life when he left 2nd edition D&D because it just wasn't playable to him. Looking at 3E "was looking at a game he could actually play."

The stuff I'm seeing so far does not excite me. Raising the degree of magic or magic-like abilities in the game is particularly disturbing because I always felt D&D was supposed to be fantasy medieval world - a medieval reality infused with mysterious magic and the supernatural - as opposed to high fantasy free of any direct connection to our own medieval and mythical history.

Honestly, we may have to wait and see this. The degree of magic might actually go DOWN, not up, though the VOLUME of magical abilities might increase. If they are "extending the sweet spot", the amount of headache inducing magic rules might wind up decreasing, as has been insinuated through the blogs.

The latter is the stuff of WoW and Everquest and Zelda - if D&D is going in that direction, and there are hints that it will - I won't be buying. If I want World of Warcraft, Everquest, Zelda or whatever of that kind (I'm not saying they're bad for others to enjoy) I'll go to those sources themselves. Keep my D&D connected, at least at its base, to medieval history and its myths, legends and great stories please.

Playing Devil's Advocate a moment, To look back over some of the heroes from Greek and Norse myth, they did have some pretty awesome abilities ascribed. What we think of as medieval fantasy often has its roots more in the pulp stories and fiction of the 1930s than real myths. Gods stopping the world from turning, strangling monsters while toddlers, shapechanging, cleaving enemies from collar to crotch by the hundreds while holding passes - even Merlin was ascribed with some pretty supernatural abilities.

However, I think fantasy from other cultures than Mediterranean and European origins has played a larger part in recent times than it did just ten years ago, and that's an influence we are feeling now with things like Book of Nine Swords as opposed to, say, The Complete Fighter's Handbook of 2nd edition.
 
Last edited:

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
Quote, please?

Don't have a quote. I say that as a reference to their marketing conduct as we've seen and as the OP sjmiller also observed regarding negative nit-picking. Actually Andy Collins has been rather harsh on elements of 3E mechanics as seen in quotes here at EN World. I do not agree with or like everything he's said. Are we getting 4E for us, or 4E for Andy et al? I hope the former, as opposed to what I am perceiving right now. Sorry, that's me. :)



@Henry: Thank you for what you said :)

It really boils down to personal taste and style - I know enough about the WoW style to know I do not like it. It never appealed to me. I'm more comfortable with the epic fantasy I grew up with than the epic fantasy of today. To each their own. ;)

I think the best game systems are those that offer a core rules set one can add things to, rather than those that risk, and I'm not saying 4E will do this yet, pigeon-holing people in playing only in a certain way or style. I am afraid of being forced to buy "this and that" to get the "whole experience" that might actually end up being a one-taste-for-all monolith - something most corporations are guilty of doing to consumer products.

Well my thoughts are wandering darkly when I read various posts and visit various sites regarding all this - I suppose many people's emotions are still a little raw - I feel it too.

I remain skeptical - but willing to give 4E a chance - I'll leave it as that for now :)
 
Last edited:

Remove ads

Top