[+] Here's my ideal future 5E supplement

That might effectively get rid of multi-classing altogether, and limit the ability to take a couple level "dip" to gain specific abilities.
I get why you could draw that conclusion.

Personally, however, I'm a strong proponent of keeping D&D strongly idiosyncratic. The way d20 modern condensed classes into strong, fast and smart (or whatever the names were) is a deal-breaker for me. Again, my mileage - yours may vary.

So my own ideal vision tries to create one Fighter class, with fightery customization. Then the Rogue gets a similar treatment. And so on. Smushing together classes into more generic things, like for instance meta concepts like "tank" "skill monkey" "gish" "damage dealer" and so on, aint my cuppa. I'd much rather you roll up a "Fighter" that then can be built towards any of those roles. Just like in the PHB.

In fact, what 5E has done to revitalize the Fighter class cannot be understated. Thanks to 5E, any APHB would feel the pressure to be able to (roughly) replicate the core of the Eldritch Knight experience, for instance. A very healthy pressure, if you ask me, since it effectively neutralizes the bad old 3E philosophy that was "if it is cool, the fighter can't have it" ;)
 

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What if you had a "starting kit"? For example I see three basic archetypes for fighters.
- Tank: Heavy armor with shield and one-handed weapon
- Heavy Hitter: Heavy armor, but no shield and two-handed weapon
- Lightweight: Light armor, two weapon fighter or focused on range

Currently, all fighters start out as tanks. If they never use a shield, well, they get it whether they want it or not. Tanks have proficiency in two-handed weapons whether they care or not. Lightweights? Well, while I don't want to give these guys too much of a boost because dex is already overpowered, they do have the most opportunity cost in resources they will never use.

Another useful experiment would be to come up with some target archetypes. I already talked a little about the shield mastery, so what about a slightly different take. A striker build with light armor that is front line, focused on combat that could not care less about opening locks. But I still want some of the extra oomph of sneak attack and mobility from a rogue. Is that too muddled, or could a system support that without multi-classing? Not that I'd ban multi-classing completely, I just want my abilities a little more a-la-carte.

May not be practical of course, I think it depends on how cleanly you want to trim your tree/bush hierarchy. Allow a little crossover? None?
 


Unless PF2 is a roaring success, I don't see much hope for the Advanced Players Guide (no matter the name) coming from WotC.

The Advanced Monster Guide is a more likely thing (although they may end up doing this as a series of webinars rather than a book), as both sample tactics and 4e-like sample encounters seem like they would fit the "feel" of 5e, particularly since they are using a tournament format as part of the build up for MToF......
 

Unless PF2 is a roaring success, I don't see much hope for the Advanced Players Guide (no matter the name) coming from WotC.
..
I rather think the opposite: if PF2 horrifies and repels it's existing 3.5-die-hard fanbase, a 5e supplement aimed at enabling more 3.5-like play could well finally bring the back to the fold.

In fact, what 5E has done to revitalize the Fighter class cannot be understated.
Heh, I don't think you meant to say that, but it's so true.

The 3.x fighter was overshadowed in terms of power/versatility by Tier 1 classes & optimal builds in it's native system, but it was an elegant, customizable, dynamic design, arguably one of the best-done class designs in D&D history - it's just hard to appreciate the bonsai when CoDzilla had breathed radioactive fire on it and stomped on its ashes. ;P OK, it also wasn't great at skills, but if you really wanted a background skill you could devote half your 2ranks/level to being whatever sort of crafter appealed to you - or fairly smoothly MC to another class, even an NPC class like aristocrat or expert, to get more skills and paint a picture of a pre-adventuring background (as could everyone, of course).

The 4e fighter was arguably the star of it's Defender role, and the best-supported class (for the only time in the game's history, the most-popular class was getting the most support, weird, huh?) until Essentials started lavishing its attentions on the Wizard, though even Essentials expanded the fighter, nominally - specifically into the Striker role with the Slayer sub-class. Not only that, but the old fighter concept it wasn't really contained in that one class, the Ranger and Warlord were essentially fighters, as well, in that they were covering non-caster archetypes who would have had to have been done (often badly) by fighter builds, in the past. And, of course, it could use backgrounds (and Themes and feats) to fill in the RP/backstory details (as could anyone, really).

For that matter, the 2e Fighter was a DPR king, who was tough as nails, and could even manage excellent saves across the board at high level, staying virtually relevant with the right collection of magic items - and it even had Kits that could backfill a little RP/backstory detail and give the odd perk or two (but, if you were using their Complete book, so could every other class).


What's the 5e fighter really bringing to 'revitalize' that storied history? It's not elegant in design, isn't backed up by other fightery classes, so is back to pulling prettymuch the whole host of non-casting archetypes by itself (really, with just the Champion & Battlemaster in the PH, and the Champ doesn't cover much). It does come through with the 2e Fighter's high DPR and relative toughness, though not it's later-game saves or expected magic item collections. And, it can take backgrounds to fill in RP/backstory and add a skill, but, of course, so can everyone else.

It's hard to understate how much revitalization that represents. "None," for instance, still over-states it. ;P

...

Seriously, though - and sorry for spilling so many electrons on a typo - a crunchier rules expansion could add so much to the 5e fighter! Maybe it wouldn't be practical to try to add back everything great the fighter had going for it in 3.x/PF/4e/E, but it can certainly be given a lot more, more detailed, options, and tremendously more customizability, versatility and interest - hopefully w/o falling into the 3.x trap of being a great design at the bottom of a heap of OP designs!


Oh, and thinking of the 3.x fighter design reminds me: 'advanced' class designs should work better with modular MCing. Not as in 'enabling dips,' but as in meshing smoothly, so that a 5/5/5/5 character can have a shot at being as good as a 20. The way 5e handles MC'd casters & cantrips, for instance, works smoothly compared to the way 3.x handled MC'd caster/caster builds (remember the Mystic Theurge?).

Oh, and while the Mystic Theurge was exactly what a PrC shouldn't have been (a MC-enabling kludge), PrCs would be a nice mechanic to add, very evocative of 3.5, adding a lot of options. Though, I do feel they'd've been better as a core rule (with few/no examples in the PH), with actual PrCs appearing exclusively in setting & adventure material, as tie-ins the players could use to make their characters fit the campaign that much better...
 
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What I think 5E is lacking the most at this point in time are two things

I like some of your advanced monster book ideas.

In terms of what I think 5e is lack the most at this point and/or my ideal future 5e supplement: A setting book based on Greyhawk, with rules particularized to more old school, gritier hardcore type adventuring. IE more difficult healing (I happen to like the 5e LOTR setting rules for this and I think they would adapt well to Greyhawk), better overland travel rules with more details for developing random grid points, better and more detailed old-school type dungeon rules (stuck doors, traps, more secret and concealed doors, less PC-level-appropriate encounters, perhaps even XP for treasure), better rules for tracking resources such as food, water, light sources. Better rules for henchmen, followers, creating and maintaining your own base of operations. Morale rules for monsters.

You mentioned two things. So (in addition to a better monster book for higher level adventuring, which you're already talking about) I guess the second ideal future 5e supplement for me would be a very good City Encounter Book. I have in mind something somewhat similar to Vornheim: The Complete City Kit, which is a superb book. However, that book dwells on "weird fantasy" and I am more thinking more "high fantasy" or "gritty fantasy" for tone. But what that book truly excels at is coming up with NPCs, buildings, adventure hooks, streets, and all sorts of stuff on the fly. And that's the key for me - on the fly. It uses some "tricks" for lack of a better word to rapidly generate elements of a city which appear, from a player perspective, to have had a lot of thought put into them. So a city toolbook like that for 5e would be excellent and highly useful, in my opinion.
 

I don't want D&D turnied into a video game.


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Do you know what I think is one of the best D&D games ever? Tiny Tina's DLC for Borderlands 2. Not an official D&D game at all, and mechanically is nothing like D&D. But it FELT like D&D, and hit all the right humor buttons, and story, and everything else.
 

I rather think the opposite: if PF2 horrifies and repels it's existing 3.5-die-hard fanbase, a 5e supplement aimed at enabling more 3.5-like play could well finally bring the back to the fold.

It is a pretty big investment considering that only making one book would hardly work--the audience demands novelty (and often). If "everyone" knows the best combos in a month, what is the point? There needs to be new stuff or how can you be ahead of the curve?

I doubt 3.5/PF1 will be without significant support for long, but I predict that the company(ies) that provide most of that support will be young and hungry, and you will only see mature entities getting back in that game after the fact (and some sign that the young companies are making [relatively] good $). Unless of course, PF2 bombs, then PF1.5 (PF1 with anything that got a lot of love in PF2, and by "anything" I mean fighters, rogues, and monks) will show up in short order.
 

It is a pretty big investment considering that only making one book would hardly work--the audience demands novelty (and often). If "everyone" knows the best combos in a month, what is the point? There needs to be new stuff or how can you be ahead of the curve?.
IDK... lot of 3.5 groups played WotC-only, Core-only, or even E6. Maybe they're the ones already happy with 5e though? ::shrug::

I doubt 3.5/PF1 will be without significant support for long, but I predict that the company(ies) that provide most of that support will be young and hungry,
Seems inevitable, thanks to the OGL. As long as there's any demand, something can be published, and legally, at that.
There is that reverence for RAW & officialdom, though as that's part of the System Mastery focus along with bloat, so I doubt a plethora of little outfits will fill the void, rather, one might emerge to carry the 'official' torch, as Paizo did.... assuming Paizo doesn't just pick it back up in time. ;)
 

Do you know what I think is one of the best D&D games ever? Tiny Tina's DLC for Borderlands 2. Not an official D&D game at all, and mechanically is nothing like D&D. But it FELT like D&D, and hit all the right humor buttons, and story, and everything else.

I really ought to play that.

I'm mining Borderlands for my megadungeon. I've statted up skags, scythids and more. I'm even using some of the maps. And yet, I haven't played the most relevance DLC. :erm:
 

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